stark

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Posts by stark

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  28

  The future of the Watchtower

  by Exterminator in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what are your thoughts on the watchtower's future?.

  here's my guess: they will move away from the increasingly embarrassing dates of 1914 and 1919, rather stressing the "success" of their organization as credentials.

  there will be even more emphasis on the concept of god's organization.. the result will be total sclerosis, for god's organization cannot err nor be reformed by men.

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  stark

  The new Russell? Keep your eye on Greg Stafford...look him up...he appears to believe most of what the watchtower teaches, but dislikes the org.
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  32

  Any Supporting Scriptures for the Trinity in the OLD Testament?

  by eclipse in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i did not want to hijack this great thread that booker-t started:.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/142032/1.ashxon the trinity.. i know the supporting scriptures for the trinity in the new testament.... i was wondering, are there any ones that support the trinity, or even a dual-god in the old testament?.

  thank you in advance for all of your comments and scriptures.. .

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  stark

  It's interesting that all through the Old Testament you find God saying that there are no other god's but Him, and that He only is to be worshipped, yet in Daniel 7:13 you find "one like a son of man" coming before the "Ancient of Days" and all of creation turning to this "one like a son of man" and worshipping him...right in front of the Ancient of Days. If God is a Trinity this is not a problem, and not a contradiction. By the way in John 9:35-38 when Christ admitted to being the Son of Man, the person Jesus was talking to immediately worshipped him.
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  33

  Jehovah's great justice

  by Zico in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the beginning .

  jehovah created millions and millions of angels.

  jehovah created 2 humans.

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  stark

  God got bored easily. He actually only made Michael the Archangel. Then he let Michael
  do the creating. Michael made the angels.

  They (God and Michael) wanted to try something different, so they created the physical earth and
  the heavens (stars and galaxies), and then wanted to create something special. They put life on
  the earth, but had gotten bored with creating virtually the same thing again and again. They
  decided to make the "life" self-perpetuating instead of making every last thing.

  Satan and the demons sinned, humans sinned. "Hmm, let's see if this can entertain us. We are
  bored, again. Satan might not want to play if we kick him out right away, but the humans will have
  no choice."

  Everytime it looked like Satan had an edge in this game, God changed the rules. There was the flood, and
  the manipulation of whole armies of people to bend the rules. Michael might have tapped God's shoulder
  and reminded him about that "bruise-on-the head-and-heel prophesy" so He fulfilled it.

  That looks like a J.W. based scenario, you might want to hash it over with one of them, they may have an answer, but Biblically it's way off. For starters Michael didn't create anything, and Jesus is not and never was Michael.
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  33

  Jehovah's great justice

  by Zico in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the beginning .

  jehovah created millions and millions of angels.

  jehovah created 2 humans.

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  stark

  Hecklerboy, you said:

  “This doesn't make much since. It's like me having children, then telling them that they have to love me or I will kill them. And if they happen to have children before I kill them I will make like hard for them. How could a child love a parent out of fear?”

  The difference is between the parents (fallible humans) and God (infallible being). The parents are to nurture and raise a person who will then enter into life being responsible for their own lives. The parent has no right to take the life of their children, because they don’t own their children, which is interesting in light of the abortion debate. However, God is Creator, Sustainer, Ruler, and absolute owner of all there is. If He allows a death it’s with the full knowledge of the person, and the power to give the life back.

  As for fear, we should have a respectful fear of God, and our love is based on the fact that He deeply loves us, so much so that we have John 3:16

  Another question is, why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve immediately and start over instead of letting them live for hundreds of years and have and undetermined amount of children? Not very smart if you ask me.

  Better yet, why did He make them in the first place? The Biblical teaching is that God knew of the need for Christ before the world existed (see 1Peter 1:19-20)

  Personally I don’t know, but there must be something about a right relationship between God and people that make it worthwhile. This relationship is so important to God that He allows people to hate and insult Him, when He could vaporize the whole thing and start all over again, all for the sake of those who turn to him. Why are we so special to God, why does He care so much for us that He is willing to enter the constraints of time and space, take on flesh, live as we do, be tortured and killed so that we can be close to Him. That something, whatever it is, has given me such hope, joy and meaning in my life, and when I look at the night sky, or narrowly avoid a disaster I have someone to thank, that’s great too.

  Yes, it doesn't appear to be very smart to a finite being, but to God?
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  33

  Jehovah's great justice

  by Zico in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the beginning .

  jehovah created millions and millions of angels.

  jehovah created 2 humans.

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  2. 
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  stark

  Zico,

  Here are some points you made from a post of yours that I didn’t get to:

  “This is besides my point.
  When an angel 'sins' or 'rebels against God' no other angel is effected by that sin. Why not all? Because that wouldn't be fair.”

  All the other angels already existed when satan sinned, the other angels didn’t do anything wrong and since they are not born from parents they are not handed a sin nature.

  “When the first human 'rebelled against God' all other humans were punished for it, because they lost their 'perfection' (see Kid-a's post for why this is ridiculous, thanks Kid-a)”

  All the other humans were handed a sin nature, but are punished for their own sin...have you ever sinned? If so you don’t need to be concerned about Adam and Eve you need to be concerned about the sin in your own life.

  “The angels don't need that, because they weren't condemned for the actions of a few other angels. I think I'd prefer to be born perfect, and not have needed Jesus.”

  Well that may be, but you weren’t born perfect...you were born innocent with an imperfect sin nature, and grew sinful (as we all were), and your need for the salvation offered by Jesus is still there.

  “We need forgiveness because God made it impossible for us NOT to sin by screwing us up for the mistakes of 2.”

  Let me adjust that to read: We need forgiveness because God made us with the ability to choose to follow Him or not to follow Him, and we have chosen not to follow Him.

  Just a reminder, God didn’t just leave us hanging with this sin nature hanging over us, and leaving us with no option but to pay the penalty for our own sin. God has come in the flesh, and paid for the sins we have committed, and has once again left us an option, accept and have eternal life, reject; pay for your sins yourself.
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  33

  Jehovah's great justice

  by Zico in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the beginning .

  jehovah created millions and millions of angels.

  jehovah created 2 humans.

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  2. 
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  stark

  Found-my-way “

  So where was Satan when God asked Satan about Job?”

  bluebell “No he didnt, Satan still had access to heaven. See eg of Job also Im sure the point of access to heaven before 1914 has been discussed in WBTS literature. I was bought up to believe that before 1914 he had access to heaven, otherwise how could he be kicked of of heaven in 1914?I think Satan and demons were cut off from gods love/sustinence straight off but definitely still had right to roam until 1914.”

  Satanus “Then, why did he keep satan around, to come and go into his holy court for thousands of yrs?”

  Here are a few quotes that I’m putting together, seeing as they are on the same subject.

  Satan was kick out of heaven in the sense that it was no longer his home, he does not belong there. The Bible doesn’t say that satan was forbidden to ever enter again. Not only is there the case of Job where satan comes before God, but there is also Revelation where it says that satan is before God always accusing the believer.

  As for the 1914 thing...That belongs to the J.W... they should probably forget the prophecy stuff and concentrate on finding the true Jesus.
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  33

  Jehovah's great justice

  by Zico in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the beginning .

  jehovah created millions and millions of angels.

  jehovah created 2 humans.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  stark

  If humans were made perfect and in gods image, how you could they act in an imperfect way? If they are flawed but made in Gods image, does this mean God is potentially flawed also?

  God made humans humanly perfect, with the potential, or rather, the ability to sin. As for God...He is absolutely perfect, there is no potential for flaw.

  Why did he create them perfect and then set out to test their perfection?

  God created Adam and Eve with the ability to disobey God so that they could choose to love Him, and without the forbidden tree in the garden they would not have the opportunity to love Him. Would Adam and Eve be perfect humans if they had no choice?

  Why did he feel the need to answer Satans supposed questioning of mans need of God, in such a long and perverse manner, which has led to endless, torturous suffering for many of mankind? Can you really associate this with a 'God' of love?

  I hate to be numb here, but I'm not certain what you mean by this question. I'm assuming that what you mean by "Satans supposed questioning of mans need of God" is Satan's discussion with Eve, but where did God answer him with men suffering.

  However, God had warned Adam and Eve that there would be consequences, for their partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

  I do leave room that I've totally missed what you were talking about.

  Tell me given this situation what would you have done if you were God?

  Remember as God, you are perfectly Holy and cannot have sin in your presence, you are also perfectly Just and must punish any wrong doing, and you are perfectly Loving and love the people you made.

  Biblically God satisfies all of these by sending His One and Only Son to take the punishment we deserve. It's at the cross sin is punished, and love is given.

  There are many more questions I could ask you on this subject.

  Bring on the questions
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  33

  Jehovah's great justice

  by Zico in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the beginning .

  jehovah created millions and millions of angels.

  jehovah created 2 humans.

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  2. 
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• 

  stark

  In the beginning…
  Jehovah created millions and millions of angels.
  Jehovah created 2 humans.

  No problem so far.
  
  Each angel was created separately, is independent of each other, and in control of his own destiny.

  Each angel is dependant on God for their existence, and can choose to rebel against God.

  Only 2 humans were created by Jehovah, every other human's existence dependant on those 2 humans.

  All humans are dependant on God for their existence, and can choose to rebel against God.

  When Satan and his demons sinned, Jehovah waited until 1914, when he installed Jesus as king, before punishing them.

  1914?? God damned Satan straight away and punished him and those who followed him by kicking him out of heaven.

  When Adam and Eve sinned, he damned them straight away, when he could have waited till they gave birth to a few perfect children before he took their perfection away from them, thus punishing them without effecting any future generation.

  Adam and Eve suffered the results of their sin just as God told them they would.

  When Satan and his demons sinned, all the good angels were allowed to live on unpunished and unchanged.

  God provides the humans forgiveness for their sins, by simply accepting Jesus as Lord. The angels don't have that.

  When Adam and Eve sinned, all subsequent generations were screwed, and damned, before they even existed, punished for their ancestors mistake.

  We are punished for our own sins if we don't accept the gift from God.

  Does anyone else see a problem here?

  Yes, God hasn't worked things out the way you want him to.
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  20

  Are JWs Christians

  by JesusIsKing in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  if so i would like to know your reasoning.

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  stark

  The J.W.'s have a different Jesus, not the Jesus of the Bible. Their Jesus is a created being, who did not rise physically from the dead. The J.W.s are not Christian.
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  9

  Jesus' death

  by Honesty in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  chapter 6 page 28 paragraph 3 of the revelation book claims that jesus was indeed "the first" human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life.

  (colossians 1:18) moreover, he is "the last" to be so resurrected by jehovah personally.

  this is an outright false teaching from the watchtower society as the biblical evidence proves:.

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  stark

  How do the J.W.s deal with John 2:19-22?

  How do they explain it away?

  I've never really talked about it with them because, the few times I'm able to talk with them it's usually about the Deity of Christ.