Posts by NanaR

175

The facts on crucifixion, stauros, and the "torture stake"

by Leolaia in

finally, i will look at biblical and patristic evidence bearing on the crucifixion of jesus in particular.

we need to examine the earliest known descriptions of the kind of crucifixion adopted by the romans and the specific terms they used to refer to it.

apparently the society believes that crux still meant "stake" in the second century a.d., when tacitus composed his annals.

NanaR

Leolaia,

Thank you for doing all that research!!! I will mark this as one of my favorites so that I can refer to it in the future.

I particularly liked this comment of yours:

"So if a historian from the future discovered an advertisement to the latest Lexis cars, would she be justified in looking up what this word originally meant in Middle English or Latin, and conclude that Americans were still driving chariots in the 21st century?"

Not all Bible Students got rid of their "cross and crown" pins. I saw one when I was little (belonged to my Grandmother).

NanaR

4

My Son, The Church, My Son in Law, and Iraq

by Amazing in

jw
friends

my son-in-law has received his orders to go to iraq.

he will leave soon.

i would go in his place, as he is like a son to me, but i am too old and not in good health, and the military will not take me.

NanaR

Jim, You have raised good and responsible sons. I have read your experiences; I believe you are an outstanding father. I hope your daughter and grandchildren are close by so that you can be a comfort and support to them during this time. I volunteer for a local Veterans organization and greatly appreciate the sacrifices that are made in the name of Duty to Country. Your other son has found Christ, just as you did. When worrying about my children, who are still without Him, I remind myself that Christ seeks us even as we seek Him. He knows His own. I will include all of you in my prayers. Ruth

16

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 1-28-07 WT Study (GIVE HOLY SPIRIT)

by blondie in

1) 'i cannot face this on my own.

3) one of jesus' disciples once requested: "lord, teach us how to pray.

q5) what does the illustration about the persistent man teach us about our disposition when praying?.

NanaR

For some reason, this particular Watchtower study motivated a "brother" to pay my husband a visit this afternoon. This is the second visit where the "brother" (different ones) particularly asked for Fred. The last time he was not in the house. Today my husband was running on the treadmill (right beside the door).

The "brother" (one that was not an elder when we were there, but who knows now?) came to the door in freezing weather wearing only his suit jacket. When I told him that Fred was running on the treadmill, he said he wanted to encourage us to come back to meetings and he held up a highlighted and underlined 12-15 Watchtower. He pointed at a passage that pretty much said "The end is upon us" or some such thing.

Like I've never heard that before.

He said, "We want you to know that Jehovah loves you." This from somebody who was close to being inactive when we were going to the hall. But the "end is near", so I guess HS is motivating everybody these days.

I admonished him for being out without an overcoat. He said he was "just making return visits".

Wonder why they are asking for my husband? My thought is that they want to talk to him about the activities of his wife -- headship and all that c**p.

My husband, who didn't slow down the treadmill even though he should have been able to hear who was at the door, said, "Maybe I'll go back to a Thursday meeting when my schedule changes" (he's going to be working doubles on Sundays). He knows I won't be going with him. He knows exactly how I feel about the whole thing. I guess if he goes back, I will have to write a letter to avoid a meeting with the elders. But I think he's just baiting me, otherwise he would have come to the door.

Anyway, thanks Blondie, for reminding me every week just WHY I don't ever want to go back to another mind-numbing Sunday morning meeting...

NanaR

63

Faith in God and the Church - Part 2 of 2 The Catholic Faith

by Amazing in

jw
friends

my story is sub-titled so you can skip ahead to parts that interest you most.. by way of reminder, my posting on "faith in god and the church" is not meant to convert anyone, because i have been out of the preaching business now for 14-years.

i am sharing my views given the questions i get when i do post about belief in god or my association with the catholic church.. why the catholic church?

protestants, especially fundamentalists and evangelicals have a hard spot with the roman catholic church.

NanaR

He was not excomunicated from the church but was removed as an official teacher for the church. Other Catholics could still attend his classes but recieved NO CREDIT. Notice how he was restricted by the Church? Now, this is stated in your own information you provided. So can you really say you are not at least pressured into sticking to the church's official doctrines? Lilly

He was a Theologian. I am not, nor will I be if/when I become a Catholic. So, no, the ordinary Catholic is NOT pressured into sticking to the church's official doctrines.

We disagree, Lilly, and that's okay. I'm most comfortable learning doctrines that have been handed down from the days of the apostles, especially after leaving the Witnesses. I was absolutely astonished to find my faith inside of a Catholic Church, but that is exactly where I found it.

This is Jim's thread, so I'm done now.

Ruth

63

Faith in God and the Church - Part 2 of 2 The Catholic Faith

by Amazing in

jw
friends

my story is sub-titled so you can skip ahead to parts that interest you most.. by way of reminder, my posting on "faith in god and the church" is not meant to convert anyone, because i have been out of the preaching business now for 14-years.

i am sharing my views given the questions i get when i do post about belief in god or my association with the catholic church.. why the catholic church?

protestants, especially fundamentalists and evangelicals have a hard spot with the roman catholic church.

NanaR

Amazing,

I hope you don't mind my commenting here:

With regard to Catholic Church tolerance (or lack thereof), notice this section of Chapter 1 of Crisis of Conscience (this chapter is found online at http://www.commentarypress.com/eng-crisis-ch1.html ):

The examples of three men—each a religious instructor of note in his particular religion, with each situation coming to a culmination in the same year—illustrate this:
One, for more than a decade, wrote books and regularly gave lectures presenting views that struck at the very heart of the authority structure of his religion.
Another gave a talk before an audience of more than a thousand persons in which he took issue with his religious organization’s teachings about a key date and its significance in fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
The third made no such public pronouncements. His only expressions of difference of viewpoint were confined to personal conversations with close friends.
Yet the strictness of the official action taken toward each of these men by their respective religious organizations was in inverse proportion to the seriousness of their actions. And the source of the greatest severity was the opposite of what one might expect.
The first person described is Roman Catholic priest Hans Küng, professor at Tübingen University in West Germany. After ten years, his outspoken criticism, including his rejection of the doctrinal infallibility of the Pope and councils of bishops, was finally dealt with by the Vatican itself and, as of 1980, the Vatican removed his official status as a Catholic theologian. Yet he remains a priest and a leading figure in the university’s ecumenical research institute. Even students for the priesthood attending his lectures are not subject to church discipline.(They simply receive no academic credit for such attendance.)
The second is Australian-born Seventh Day Adventist professor Desmond Ford. His speech to a layman’s group of a thousand persons at a California college, in which he took issue with the Adventist teaching about the date 1844, led to a church hearing. Ford was granted six months leave of absence to prepare his defense and, in 1980, was then met with by a hundred church representatives who spent some fifty hours hearing his testimony. Church officials then decided to remove him from his teaching post and strip him of his ministerial status. But he was not disfellowshiped (excommunicated) though he has published his views and continues to speak about them in Adventist circles.
The third man is Edward Dunlap, who was for many years the Registrar of the sole missionary school of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead, also a major contributor to the organization’s Bible dictionary (Aid to Bible Understanding [now titled Insight on the Scriptures]) and the writer of its only Bible commentary (Commentary on the Letter of James). He expressed his difference of viewpoint on certain teachings only in private conversation with friends of long standing. In the spring of 1980, a committee of five men, none of them members of the organization’s Governing Body, met with him in secret session for a few hours, interrogating him on his views. After over forty years of association, Dunlap was dismissed from his work and home at the international headquarters and disfellowshiped from the organization.
Thus, the religious organization that, for many, has long been a symbol of extreme authoritarianism showed the greatest degree of tolerance toward its dissident instructor; the organization that has taken particular pride in its fight for freedom of conscience showed the least.

Note that Hans King WAS NOT excommunicated from the Catholic Church; he was not even silenced. He was removed from a position of speaking FOR the Church regarding Church doctrine, but other Catholics are still allowed, with no penalties, to listen to him. He is still a PRIEST as well.

I am getting ready to go into RCIA. I have had a great many discussions with one of the RCIA teachers regarding the subject of Catholic tolerance of diverse beliefs (I have a certain difficulty with the concept of eternal torment but no problem with the concept of eternal destruction or eternal separation from God). I have been told by this teacher that entrance into the Catholic Church is dependent upon acceptance of the Nicean Creed ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm ):

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."
So I expect that someone who does not truly believe in the Trinity, or who does not believe that Jesus was God in the Flesh, would not be accepted as a member of the Catholic Church. Also I expect that belief in the virginity of Mary as the Mother of God would be necessary.
She told me, however, that many new converts have difficulty with one or more Catholic teachings (the example she used was Transubstantiation, not because I had mentioned it but because someone in a recent RCIA class had mentioned it). She said that all Catholics grow in their knowledge and understanding of Church doctrine as they mature as Christians, and that the oridinary Christian is not expected to be a Theologan.
My friend also has frequent discussions with another lady she works with. This other lady is a devout and practicing Catholic, but she is wishy-washy with regard to the role of the Magesterium and has difficulty with the concept of papal infallibility. These views do not inhibit her Catholic worship or her standing as a Catholic, and my friend does not view her any differently just because they disagree on this point of Church doctrine.
My husband left the Catholic Church in 1972. He also very forcefully insists that the Catholic Church is much more arbitrary and authoritarian than I have found it to be. His experience with taking his questions to the parish priests was about as bad as that recounted above by Amazing. He has been inactive with the Witnesses for as long as I have, but contends he is still "going back" to the Kingdom Hall and that he would never return to the Catholic Church (he is a "cradle Catholic" who was baptized, confirmed, and graduated from a Catholic High School). When he was attending Mass, it was conducted in Latin. He is astonished and greatly troubled by my decision to investigate the Catholic Church.
It seems to me that the Church went through some difficulties in the last half of the 20th Century. There were some infamous disagreements regarding the catechism during that time. These difficulties may have simply been a reaction to the spirit of revolution and of protest that was so prevalent during the 60s and 70s. I really don't know, as I was a firmly entrenched "cradle JW" during those years.
I am finding the Catholic Church to be a very welcoming environment with patient and loving teachers who attempt to answer all questions that I might raise.
Ruth

44

Faith in God and the Church - Part 1 of 2

by Amazing in

jw
friends

palmer: i don't know.

i mean, for me... i need proof.. palmer: proof.

ellie: yes, very much.. palmer: prove it.. [source: http://www.turning-pages.com/contact/machine.htm].

NanaR

Love is not a commodity to be bartered, for it is priceless and cannot be bought.

What a wonderful way to say it :-)

My comment would be that once a person actually EXPERIENCES unconditional love for themselves, they would never be able to deny its value.

Ruth

44

Faith in God and the Church - Part 1 of 2

by Amazing in

jw
friends

palmer: i don't know.

i mean, for me... i need proof.. palmer: proof.

ellie: yes, very much.. palmer: prove it.. [source: http://www.turning-pages.com/contact/machine.htm].

NanaR

Amazing,

Thank you so much for taking the time to compose and post this. I absolutely love the clarity of your reasoning.

As you know, I have started on my own "journey of faith" -- toward becoming a Catholic. As I was considering certain points of faith -- most notably the Trinity -- I reasoned along much the same lines as you. The Trinity cannot be conclusively "proven" from scripture -- but the shadows are there, proof of the divinity of Christ is there. If God exists, and if he is the great "First Cause", then how could we ever imagine that we as puny humans could fully understand or describe him through words in a book, even a book inspired by him? He is, as you so clearly point out, NOT THE SAME AS WE ARE (which of course makes his coming in the flesh among us an even greater gift).

Also your point is very valid that belief and faith are not the same thing. When I left the Witnesses, I lost my faith in God. But I did not entirely lose my belief in God. I just couldn't figure out who he was or what, if anything, he wanted from me or humans in general.

As a Witness, I was taught to completely mistrust all emotion in worship -- that those who claim to be "moved by Holy Spirit" are really coming in contact with demons. But when I experienced religious emotion for the very first time while being blessed by a priest in a Catholic Church service, I gained the strength to start dismantling my JW conditioning and seek a real relationship with Jesus Christ. I gained a new faith.

The saddest component for me of leaving the Watchtower was that for a time I really felt that I had "lost God". But he found me.

And I found wise friends like you to help me in my journey back to Him.

Your friend,

Ruth

75

Believer, Agnostic or Atheist?

by lfcviking in

jw
friends

i am curious, what amount people on this board from their experiences of being a baptised & active jw and their subsequent exit from the jw org (for whatever reason or reasons) are now either agnostic, atheist or do some actually still believe in god?.

your honest answers please.. lfcv.

NanaR

For several years, I called myself an "ethical pagan".

I am now a believer -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

NanaR

67

The serious conversation with the wife about the cult

by OnTheWayOut in

jw
friends

if you needed my background, this thread will tell it-.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/121888/1.ashx.

my wife recently asked me about not commenting at a wt study.. our discussion was the topic of this thread-.

NanaR

OnTheWayOut,

You are demonstrating patience and love, you are communicating. Sounds like the two of you have a very good marriage.

My husband also for some reason got the idea that I was going to change overnight into a wicked person when I finally told him (after both of us have been inactive for several years) that I'm never going back. I just keep reassuring him of my love for him and commitment to our marriage. I also am being patient with his continued "I'm going back someday" so as not to push him in that direction.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Best wishes to both of you,

NanaR

39

God's Organization Has Needed Adjusting

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

gods organization has needed adjusting defending the watchtower, many jehovahs witnesses.

point-out the changes that have taken place are nothing more than .

adjustments in understanding.

NanaR

"Many Jehovah’s Witnesses will state the nation of Israel had many flaws, but God did not abandon them.

Therefore, any noted flaws should not discount we have the true religion."

For me then the question becomes, did God choose them in the first place? What evidence backs up their contention that he did?

The Catholic Church "adjusts" their doctrine every century or two. They are also the oldest Christian religion. So could they not use the very same argument to prove that they are the true religion? If God did not abandon Israel for killing the prophets and other grave wrongs, then why should we imagine he abandoned the Christians of the first millenium entirely to apostasy, only to anoint a hat salesman from Brooklyn to revive true worship at the end of the second?

NanaR