Faith in God and the Church - Part 2 of 2 The Catholic Faith

by Amazing 63 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    My story is sub-titled so you can skip ahead to parts that interest you most.

    By way of reminder, my posting on "Faith in God and the Church" is not meant to convert anyone, because I have been out of the preaching business now for 14-years. I am sharing my views given the questions I get when I do post about belief in God or my association with the Catholic Church.

    Why the Catholic Church? Protestants, especially fundamentalists and evangelicals have a hard spot with the Roman Catholic Church. They have some good and legitimate arguments. Jehovah's Witnesses have a particular difficulty with Rome because their leaders have done a marvelous job of convincing the JWs that the Catholic Church is not just merely a memebr of Babylon the Great, but that Rome is the Mother of all of her Protestant harlots. Rome is the epitomy how the Devil soon turn the early Christians from a good life of going door-to-door with little scrolls preaching a paradise earth, into a pagan trinity-loving power arm of politics, screwing the masses for 1874-years until Jesus returned in his second presence and raised up Chuck Russell to tell people just how it really is. Opps, Jesus erased his return in 1874 and re-returned in 1914. Notwithstanding this little minor adjustment in earth-shaking event, the JWs are today the modern reflection of how early Christianity was before Rome took over. So, when an ex-JWs becomes Catholic, it seems like a significant departure from his/her earlier stand regarding Rome.

    Even ex-JWs still have angst and maybe some fear: I have to hand it to the Watchtower Society for effectively brainwashing people. For all that it takes to leave the JWs, and overcome Watchtower indoctrination, we still carry with us parts of their teaching and beliefs, and live by it. Last year when I was doing research on the topic of the Holy Spirit and this involved the Trinity, I posted some questions and discussion on JWD. The reaction was fascinating, not because most ex-JWs do not accept the Trinity, but the style of response and reasoning used was so much in line with the Watchtower. And at times emotions raised up and closed minds to open discussion. Likewise, many ex-JWs still have a jaundiced view of Rome, and see the Catholic Church as an evil entity, basing their views on the same arguments they learned as JWs. So, I hope that this presentation and follow-up discussion will help reduce some of the angst and open lines of communication ... not to convert, but to improve understanding of history and have more intellectual honesty.

    My Catholic History: It may help to state why I left the Church in the first place. My family were devout Catholics. My brother had gone into the initial phase at seminary to be a Priest. I was contemplating the same thing. My brother soon realized that he liked girls too much to continue on to be a Priest. When I was about ready to go into the Priesthood, and did spend my first short visit at the seminary, life dramatically changed catapulting me into the direction of Jehovah's Witnesses. We were all raised in Catholic school, being taught by Dominican Sisters and at times visiting Franciscan Priests. Both the Fransciscans and Dominicans were responsible many hundreds of years ago ( think around the 12th or 13th century) for bringing the Church into the modern age of academics, and this also meant educating society in general. Given this historic focus on academics, our Catholic education by standards of society in the 1960s and perhaps even today, was most excellent - about the best one can get. When I changed over to public school, I was years ahead of my peers. So, how did I end up a Jehovah's Witness?

    How the Church failed me: In 1966, my family changed dramatically. My brother went to the Army and on to serve in Germany. (Cold war, and spying on the Soviets). My oldest sister was already living and married in New Jersey. My younger sister (older than me, be younger of the two girls) got married and lived in another town. My mother retired, got cancer and died. The day before she died, my best friend moved away to Oklahoma. A month later, my dad abandoned me, moved away and got married, leaving me alone with my aged grandmother who was born in 1888. A couple of months later, my Grnadmother started talking about moving to a Catholic rest home in San Diego. So, by the hand of God, my brother was reassigned to an Army base in northern California. He invited me to live with him. At the same time, my grades in school dropped as I sufferred depression - and we did not understand depression as well in those years.

    Society was in a virtual civil war over Viet Nam. African Americans were protesting, and continuing violence across the nation. Colleges and universotoes were in turmoil over Viet Nam. The age of cheap oil was coming to an end, threatening our economy. The Catholicv Church was still trying to figure out what it was doing in the post-Vatican II era. They struggled more over nonsense about which way the Alter faced at Mass than with deeper concerns of Catholics ... especially in the US. Assassinations of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King utterly placed us in a siege mentality. Our nation was in a never-ending struggle with communism and its cheif proponent, the Soviet Union. We constantly feared nuclear war.

    When I turned to the local Church in the only way I knew how ... they failed. One of the priests in the Church was trying to have an affair with my sister in law while my brother was away on assignment. The Pastor ( a Monsignor) was not sure he believed in God, telling our family how he felt while he visited us, and the Priest I visited to discuss JW literature told me to through my Bible in the trash because only the book of St. John was worth reading. He then proceeded to tell me about his girlfriend and his plans to leave the Priesthood. Sometime later, when my brother returned from assignment, he and I attended a Catholic Church in another town to see if that would help. It was somehow an empty and lifeless service ... and we both commented on how we wished we had just stayed home that day.

    Now enter Jehovah's Witnesses: My supervisor at work was a JW Pioneer. He did not know of all of the junk that I was facing, but knew enough to zoom in with the "Truth" book. We had long discussions on the job, and eventually on Bible studies. Critical literature of the JWs was not readily available or easy to find. So, I had only their word, some historical references they cited and quoted, and the conduct of the Priests of my local Church. I went as far as asking my Priest to come to the Bible studies and talk to the JW Pioneer. He agreed, but then stood me up twice. I gave up on the Church. The JWs talked about the end of the world - how Armageddon was so very close - likely 1975 - and certainly, in my rapidly changing and unstable world, things seemed like the end was near. Coupled with this was the message of a paradise earth where I would see my Mom again and enjoy seeing her have a life of perfect health. I could potentially see all my family and friends, and never know sorrow again - that was a most attractive resolution to what appeared to be an ugly world and a failed Church. I wrote a mean letter to the Catholic Church where I was baptized and resigned my membership. These events took place between 1968 and 1969. I was baptized a JW in 1970.

    1993 to 1999: I walked away from Jehovah's Witnesses in April 1993 for very different reasons then my reasons for leaving the Catholic Church. In July 1995, exactly 25-years after I was baptized, the congregation read an announcement that I disassociated myself. In truth, the Society forced my disassociation. My final letter to the Elders paved the way for them to make that announcement. (Someday, I will publish my 29-page letter for everyone's ammusement.) My exit story and the reasons for leaving are detailed on my story posted on exjws.net. Click here: http://www.exjws.net/pioneers/partintro.htm) So, I shortly thereafter became involved with a local Baptist Church. That was a good experience until the Pastor went to jail for fondling children. I then attended various churches for three years until about 1996. Then, I stopped going to any church. I stopped praying, and I stopped reading the Bible. These were not conscious decisions, but rather, I just got busy working and didn't have any real interest in anything religious.

    I discover ex-JWs on line at H20: This was interesting to me, and as I read posts and begin posting, I discovered that I still had many unresolved issues. Whie I did not attend any church (except for a wedding or a funeral or other special ocassion) I did discover that my faith in Christ was still intact. I had managed to separate Christ from all religions and found that he was the really important focus, and that religious institutions have to take a second place to Christ. And so, I have been on line for about seven years growing and changing, questioning, learning, getting into board fights, winning some arguments and getting burned by others, and sharing openly my views, experiences and feelings.

    A sad issue: Last, but not least, is my steady involvement in legal issues regarding the Watchtower shileding of pedophiles. Unfortunately, just as the Watchtower Society was being exposed to the media, with several of us giving interviews, etc. the Catholic Church jumps in front with their Priests who are molesting altar boys, etc. Gawd! I wanted to puke. Both because I was wanting to Watchtower to get its just exposure, and I was just starting to feel warm toward the Catholic Church once again. Damn it all !!! I was pissed more than you can imagine ... and in some ways, I was embarassed because Rome and the American Cardinals were not taking swift and clear action to resolve the problem.

    2002 Heart Attack and the Church: In May 2002, I had massive heart attack where three arteries closed off. It took over three hours to clear me and stop the attack. I told the story on JWD titled, "Shaking Hands with Death" in a three part series. A helicpoter takes me to a Catholic Hospital. The next morning, while laying in insensive care, a Priest walks in to see me and how I am doing. I tried to tell him my ex-JW story and how mean I was to the Church ... but he stopped me and asked if I still believe in Jesus Chrst, to which I said yes. He said that I need not worry about this stuff, and instead focus on getting better. I then mentioned that I could not pay for the medical care. He then replied that I also need not worry about that. When the $75,000 in bills rolled around, all I had was $7,500. The Catholic Church paid the rest, lock stock and barrell. They asked nothing of me. They did not question my religious views. They did not recall my past as a JW who preached against them. It was a tase of what I recalled being around the Dominican Sisters. It was a refreshing feeling that I had not known in three decades.

    2005 rolls around - and something new happens: After my attendance at BRCI in June 2005, I was signed up to give a new talk on the Holy Spirit in June of 2006. I had just given a talk on salvation by grace or works and had found interesting and historical information in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I shared this because I found that the Orthodox held what I considered to be a few classical Protestant views, yet the Orthodox has the same history as Rome, dating back to the first century. So, I commenced to learn all I could about the Holy Spirit in an effort to deal with the mysterious 'sin against the Holy Spirit' which is unforgivable. When I started this process, I never dreamed where it would lead.

    The Holy Spirit: In my studies, I read every writing of the early Church fathers from the late first century up to the late second century. It was a lot of work. One thing became extremely clear, the Trinity was taught long before the council at Nicaea in 325. It was specifically identified by the name Trinity by about180 AD. The elements and concepts of the Trinity date right back to about 107 AD, shortly after the Apostle John died. St. Ignatius who was trained and groomed to be a bishop by the Apostle Peter was also a close friend of the Apostle John and was a friend and admirer of the Apostle Paul. St. Ignatius became Bishop of Antioch about 67 AD. He was born sometime around the death of Jesus Christ - and some legend says he was the child who sat on Jesus lap in one of the Gospels. Whatever the case, it is not likely that St. Ignatius would have become a flaming pagan-loving apostate. The early Church was too young and life did not change that fast in those days. Communication was slow, and people were more set in their ways. Yet, one finds that St. Ignatius clearly believed that Jesus is God. St. Ignatius referred to the Church in an institutional way by calling it the Catholic Church ... this in a style that was more than merely a reference to the "universal" church. In all of his writings he comes across just like a Catholic or Orthodox Priest. For me, this was shell-shocking after so many years of believing the Watchtower line that the early Church was more like the JWs, preaching door-to-door with little scrolls, preaching a paradise earth, and functioning like the modern day JWs do. It should not have been so shocking, because I was taught Church history in school ... but somehow, I forgot it all, and then my trust in the Church was shaken, and my acceptance and trust in the JWs replaced it. But, finally, as I read every verse in the New testament about the Holy Spirit, I realized just how mush the JWs altered the Bible so that any possibility of understanding the Holy Spirit as a person was eliminated. But, even the NWT Committee forgot to doctor up a few vewses ... and they left open Acts 13:2 which shows the Holy Spirit speaking in first person expressing his own will as the Lord. Of course, the Society changed the word Lord to read Jehovah, without any basis. But, the text still comes though as it does in Greek. The Holy Spirit cannot be personified in a classical narrative. Acts is not a poetic book, and thus the JW argument falls apart.

    What to do now? I began praying more regularly again, often repeating the Our Father Prayer ... and I don't know why, I just did. Then, I began praying to the Holy Spirit. I wanted to test out what I was discovering, and figured it cannot hurt. Afterall, 99% of Christianity accept the Trinity. Most people pray to the Father, and some also to Jesus ... but the Church has a historic record of prayer to the Holy Spirit. So, why not? That is the point, in December 2005 when things began to change in ways that I never expected. Jesus clearly stated in John 14:26 that it is the Holy Spirit who would run the show unti he returns: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    The Holy Spirit teaches, comforts and recalls Gods words, Jesus words, to our minds. We are not guided by a Governing Body or some institution, but by the Holy Spirit. If we let him do his job, he will be the one who comes into our lives and lead us the rest of the journey. This is what I finally experienced ... and oddly enough, it was kicked off whie I went to a door of a woman who was raised in a Soviet prison. I will tell that story another time.

    Where do I go? By this time I had paid a couple of visits to a local Greek Orthodox Church and was beginning to affiliate with them. I still like them a lot, and accept some of their views over and above those of Rome. I will also get into that another time. But, for some reason, I was just not going anywhere with the Greeks ... they still hold strongly to their customs, language and culture. They were nice to me, but I felt the distance. I desparately wanted to attend Greek classes as taught by Greeks ... for this would compliment my difficult reading of Greek, and perhaps help me when I am trying to understand some verses. But, it just did not happen ... so do I go anywhere, and if so, where. I stopped attending the Greek Church. By the way, a Greek Orthodox Mass is like a traditional Latin Catholic Mass from the 1960s, except it is super-charged and even more ritualistic.

    Tom Cabeen and Company: Those of you who have read a lot know that Tom Cabeen was a former factory overseer at the Watchtower printing in New York. He is a well known ex-JWs. He and I hit it off, and started talking on the phone and e-mailed a lot. In our discussions he noted that he could hear my Catholic roots. He then reveals that he was studying to become a Catholic. He had been with the Anglican Church for several years up to this time. I also had contact with some other ex-JW turned Catholic, like Jeff Schwem, who posts here on JWD. Also, during late 2005 early 2006 I resumed regular discussions with my oldest sister who remains a devout Catholic. I did not recall her being so open-minded, and accepting of the fact that I questioned things ... and she still loved me and understood my issues ... and she openly talked about them. As I wrapped up my study on the Holy Spirit, I was simultaneously revisiting both Catholic and Orthodox history, especially in the early years, and then up to the schism in 1054. All of this led to the decision.

    Why the Catholic Church? The history of the Church is rich with boneheaded and some terrible deeds. The Inquisition is perhaps the most talked about by non-Catholics as the single basis for rejecting the Church. Some of the historic errors that people highlight are blown out of proportion, and some are just not true, or are twisted accounts of understandable events. Still, the Church has a a lot of sins on her record. Likewise, though not as bad, the Orthodox have some juicy sins that should not have existed. Protestant Churches have their records, though perhaps not as bad in most cases ... yet, when I look at Southern Baptists and their long record on racism in the South, I have to question their relationship to Christ just as much as the Catholic Church. In fact, ther eis not a church around that has not serious sinned in some way, knowlingly or unknowingly. Further yet, each person in each church sins every day. More than that, I am a sinner, and have done some really stupid and wrong things.

    Side Bar: Why not then be nicer to the Watchtower Society? Because, she is still harboring molesters and fighting the molestation issue. When she repents someday and changes her evil ways, she too can join in with the chorus of churches, and be forgiven ... someday.

    The Catholic Church Today and Her Tradition: The Church does not claim to be more than she is - that is, the historic Church that grew out of the first century. She is rich with history and tradition. I know the JWs love to harp on the scripture about the traditions of men ... blah, blah, blah ... but the JWs and most Protestants also forget to read the rest of the New Testament which recommend the Tradition of the Apostles:

    2 Thess. 2 [15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    2 Thess. 3 [6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the traditionwhich he received of us.

    The early Church just did not have the NT Bible. They had scattered letters which were copied and shared, but that took many years just to get a few copies around to some congregations. They did not have printing presses until 1500 years later. They did not go around with little scrolls published by some Bible Society. They taught the faith by WORD of MOUTH. The prime teaching tool was the Apostle Creed. It was not written by the Apostles, but was taught by them and was used in baptismal questions from the late first century onward. It was easy to recall and therefore easy to spread the faith. The Apostles Creed was finally used to develop the Nicene Creed. One of the most popular early versions of the Apostle Creed reads this way:

    I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth; I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.Source: http://www.christianodyssey.com/history/apostles.htm

    The Holy Spirit is an object of faith. Other versions state that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life. He was the one who created Jesus human life in Mary.

    The holy catholic Church is also an object of faith or belief. Yes, the term is lower case, a modern convention, because many modern groups who refern to the Creed must attmept to make the distinction that "catholic' means universal. Roman Catholics know this too ... it is drilled into us from our youth onward. But, back then there was only one faith, one Church. It was catholic by its nature. St. Ignatius, as noted above, referred to it in an institutional way in the year 107 AD. The Church remained united as one Christian faith until 1054 AD.

    What is the Church today? She is NOT a modern day prophet or prophet class, She is simply the Chursh that has existed since the founding of the faith by the Apostles. She can do stupid and wrong things, though today she is doing a lot of good and has greatly reduced the bad. She does not controll everyone in a lock-step tightly run organization ... so there is a lot of room for diversity and error. She has kept the teachings of the faith and has continued Apostolic tradition despite Protestant rejection of such. She universally accepts and understands that not all Christians are Catholic, and thus Protestants and others are good Christians who will gain everlasting life in heaven. She is simply doing her job as she has for 2,000-years.

    Do I believe she is the One True Church? I disagree with Rome on some important issues. While I am pleased that she finally apologized for her lack of support of the Jews in WWII, and she has acknowledged the immorality of what happened during the Inquisition, she has also got some flaws. She still promotes Papal infallibility (though this doctrine was not made official until 1870, and the Popes have only employed it twice.) Still, this doctrine is not recognized by the Eastern Orthodox, as represented by Constantinople. The historic Catholic Church was under control of local Bishops who solved issues at Ecumenical Councils. The Catholic focus on the Pope is a departature from that tradition. However, the good news is that the Church recognizes these issues and is in talks with the East to reunify the whole Church. This will add 1.5 Billion Roman Catholic to about 500 Million Orthodox. Thanksfully the Popes of recend centuries have been pretty good men, and so the Church has prosepered overall ... and is growing well in the United States by over 1 millioin per year.

    So, to answer the question, the Catholic Church is not the one true church organization in the sense that JWs and ex-JWs have come to understand this term. Rather, she, with her sister the Orthodox Church, have the only valid, provable and lasting claim to be the present day continuation of the historic Church, continuing the Apostolic Tradition as no other can claim. She makes mistakes and at times has sinned seriously. She has recovered through the centuries and has grown, and has renounced her wrongs and she continues to do what she has otherwise always done ... be the holy catholic church.

    The time came to consider what I should do. I decided to talk to the Pastor of the local Catholic Church. He and I had a nice visit. he is a highly educated man, with degrees pouring out of his ears. His associate Pastor has degrees in early Church history from a Protestant school. The Pastor has one degree in psychology and another in psychiatry (or a related field). He has authored some books. He was very nice to me, and was not at all judgmental. He gave me a list of various ministries in the Church that I might consider. He said to take things slowly and not feel any pressure. And, he would also respect me should I decide to not go forward. It was again the kind of spirit I knew as a child ... before the church went goofy in the late 1960s.

    I went to confession in July 2006. For the first time in 38-years, I was inside a Catholic Church alking privately with a Catholic Priest. He was a kindly man, and a Priest since 1950. I was nervous because I still did not trust telling my sins to anyone but God. He did not take notes, nor build a file. He listened, and asked me not to give details, just say things in generalities. Well, in that case, the list was a lot shorter. Of course, I did not have to confess all that I would were I a JW. Birthdays, smoking, Christmas, etc. are not sins to Catholics. In fact, I only had a couple of sins in general. He did not counsel me, or open a Bible. He instead urged me to not look back and live in sadness ... but look forward and continue my walk with Christ ... that Christ would deal with me directly, and the Holy Spirit would lead me. The Church would be there in whatever way I needed. This was so damn refreshing and uplifting that I started crying like a baby. I was trying to tell the Priest about my JW years and how some of my ex-JWs friends helped me along the way ... and when I got to the part about how the Church paid off my medical bills, without so much as asking a single thing of me ... I broke down ... I just could not take it anymore ... I could not turn my back on this crazy, sinful, stupid, bonehead, but otherwise loving people and Church. I could openly and honestly admit the terrible errors of the Church. Clearly Jesus recognized this with the seven congregations he counseled in Revelation. Yet, I was also free to recognize her good, the loving and unselfish people who give and who care. So, as a sinful bonehead myself, I accepted reconciliation with the Church.

    Is that ALL? No, I did not give a Biblically reasoned presentation of why I returned to the Catholic Church. It is not about defining Bible verses, or pushing doctrine. It is about the sacred which her ritual is designed to highlight. It is about maintaining the word of mouth tradition that the Bible speaks of to compliment what is written. It is about not judging an entire people based on the actions of some who abused their authority and position. It is about returning home to where I first learned of a loving Christ who cares more about healing and helping than about pushing a phamplet through a screen door. It is a place of freedom to admit serious wrongs, and not get the boot. It is about doing anything that one finds good and joyful in their Christian life, and not having to wait for some bureaucratic organization apporval from some old stodgy Governing Body. It is a guiltless place where I do not have to worry about preaching some belief system ... but my example is good enough. I can water as I can, but it is really God that make it grow ... not some repeated return visit to sell a publishing company off as a religion. A Catholic can start up a ministry tomorrow and help people and the Church is supportive. A Catholic accepts their Protestant brethern as fellow Christians, and does not have to shun them or worry about being mixed in with apostasy. It is about a deep and abiding faith regardless what some goons do ... because it is about me and Christ alone. It is indeed the universal Church, it is the holy catholic Church.

    Jim Whitney

  • bernadette
    bernadette

    Hi Jim

    thanks for telling us about your spiritual discoveries - very encouraging. I haven't been able to logon for a couple of days and reading your topic is very uplifting. I need now to go and read part 1.

    I liked the universal aspect of catholicism that u drew attention to.

    I had a convent education - grew up catholic before becoming a jw.

    I remember when I was 14 - one of the nuns asked us in our scripture lesson if we believed in god. I very adamantly said I did not. She looked at me for a moment, I stared back defiantly. She let it pass, there was no confrontation or guilt, and she never mentioned the subject again, this despite the fact that the rest of the class followed my lead and said they didn't believe in god either. How different from jws.

    thanks again

    bernadette

  • bythesea
    bythesea

    Jim, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I was moved to tears as you recounted your experience of your first confession with the priest after so many years away...I am not Catholic, cannot relate to it in any fashion personally, but your ability to relate the changes you felt, your relief at feeling as tho you had finally "come home" were indeed moving to me.

    I have read your entire story from exjw site, it was one of the first things I came across as I began my own search online and perhaps because we have trod so much of the same physical territory in Oregon I have tried to keep up with your posts here at JWD and on Channel C to see what has become of you! I am so happy to know that you are finding peace with the Church and able to see things as they truly are in regards to its failures and sins. I wish nothing but the best for you. And I greatly appreciate the amount of research you have done and that we can in some small way benefit from it. God bless......

    bythesea

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Jim,

    Very thought out article thanks for sharing. I am glad that your health is better and that you found a church that you personally can accept being part of. I would like to point out one thing I disagree with in your article.

    I also grew up in the Catholic church but made the choice to leave in my pre-teens. I understand that the term Catholic is supposed to stand for universal. And yes, Christ started one church, but this does not mean one organization or church system. The way to become a Christian is faith in Christ and baptism into his body, then you are in that one Church he began.(Ephesians 4). The church is not the building or denomination, or having to accept certain man made traditions, it is the people who have faith and are baptized into Christ and they ARE the church.

    The Catholic Chruch today does not only use the term Catholic in a broad sense of being "universal" encompasing all believers in Christ, but as a name of their denomination. In order to be part of the Catholic Church, you must agree with the doctrines and teachings of their hierarchy. If I refuse to accept some of their teachings as scriptural, I cannot become a Catholic. To say you are anything but a Christians is dividing the body of Christ into sects.

    The Bible says where two or three are gathered in Jesus name, there is the church. You do not have to belong to a certain denomination. And no matter how you rationalize the real meaning of the word "universal" or "catholic", you know full well that the Catholic Church believes that it IS the only true church in the world with any authority. And you know it is referring to its organization, not just the believers. You cannot say this is not true, for I grew up in that Church and know it is true. That is part of why I left in the first place.

    Now, that being said, if you enjoy being a Catholic, then that is your choice. You are a Christian, just as I am but not because you are part of a particular church system or denomination, keep certain traditions, or because you are called "Catholic" but because you have the Holy Spirit living in you. Just as I have. And therefore we are both in the Body of Christ (church).

    Best wishes to you, Lilly

  • Outaservice
    Outaservice

    The first I recall hearing a former Jehovah's Witness returning to the Catholic faith she was raised in was Barbara Grizzuti Harrison. (now deceased) In her book ITALIAN DAYS she recounts going back to Italy on a vacation and the feeling of coming home when she visited a Catholic Church there.

    She also was famous for her book VISIONS OF GLORY, A HISTORY AND A MEMORY OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES which if any have not read would find quite interesting. I believe it is on the net for anyone to read for free.

    Knowing you and Tom Cabeen personally, I have seen the positive changes in your lives and am happy for that. I'll have to think about praying to THE HOLY SPIRIT for now though as many of the Watchtower baggages I still carry around prevents that at the present time.

    Outaservice

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Lovelylil,

    I agree with your comments, and if you read my post again (sorry it was so long) you will see that my view is very close to yours. One exception to your comments: Catholics do not have to accept everything the Church teaches. It is preferred if they do ... but you will not hear of a Catholic being booted or being refused communion for disagreeing with the Church. I openly stated that I do not accept Papel infallibility, as I find Orthodoxy also refuses to accept it. They are considered a legiotimate half of the Church by Rome. When I talked with the Priest, I stated some of my exceptions, and he had no problem with my views.

    Outaservice:

    I agree, praying to the Holy Spirit is such a new thought, that an ex-JW may want to take their time before going that far. It worked for me, but may not be necessary for others. Roman Catholics are not real big on prayer to the Holy Spirit, but the Orthodox are more so.

    Jim W.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Jim,

    Thank you for your reply. I am glad that the church does not force its members to agree with everything they teach. Maybe since I left in my youth, I did not fully understand this point. So thank you for clearing that up. That certainly would be a different view than the Witnesses wouldn't it? And I totally agree, no one is infallible, except God. Lilly

  • bernadette
    bernadette

    Now, that being said, if you enjoy being a Catholic, then that is your choice. You are a Christian

    non christians ???????

  • RAF
    RAF

    Interesting:

    I too went to the catholic church and realised how more loving they were (big contrast) in there teaching, and ways to lead to the Word personified in Christ as being the Lord … the forgiver / the one who take care of our hearts trough him and those who follow him (in knowing him or in agreeing with the holly spirit) because somehow it is the same thing (like you said) it’s like listening to him from the inside).

    I really like the way you described the holly spirit

    The Holy Spirit teaches, comforts and recalls Gods words, Jesus words, to our minds. We are not guided by a Governing Body or some institution, but by the Holy Spirit. If we let him do his job, he will be the one who comes into our lives and lead us the rest of the journey. This is what I finally experienced ...

    I resumed it as being the force of true love (the love of the good)It talks to you, it teaches you more and more even through your errors (you can fail but you’ll understand) it is also what makes you feel bad if you did bad and want to do better next time.

    I can get too much into Trinity (but only multiplicity of personifications God/Christ) just because it doesn’t really help to understand from the bases what you’ve said (which is correct to me from A to Z)

    Matthew 12: 30. "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31. "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32. "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
    IF you take it as a person (even Jesus himself from this verses for instance) you don’t really understand how you can sin against it, and if you take it just as god’s power you still can’t get it … if you are not initiated spiritually.

    Blasphemy against the holly spirit then means being hypocrites against true love (the love of the good) and not listening to what it says to us – it’s not a question of sin / it’s clear in those verses – it’s a question of : you know you are unloving but you are still working getting into it with no regretsthat’s indeed is going very far (and that’s what most religious leaders did means going to the point to misleading our hearts – like some other monsters on this earth) those are the once who are not forgivable.

    There is nothing to fear about God/Christ the choice is ours: as long as we follow our heart and are without hypocrisy and have true feelings for our brothers everything is ok Charity of every kind including forgiveness is the key about the how (when it’s possible – we are imperfect and will have to deal with that till we die).

    But I have a problem with associating with any church:

    Matthew 24:15

    it happened but everyone have to understand it as his own time (people have seen it yet or not) but you talked about it in your comments about all churches … there is a time to understand that we can’t just follow them … The Christ is the leader and the temple … the holly spirit our guide from the inside which interact with the bit of spirit of God all have inside.

    So it’s all about wanting to believe to know is his there (he is there anyway) to hear him and you hear him already (believer or not) since you have feelings for others and also for yourself … (there are no sin unforgivable – if we can follow our heart without giving our ego too much space in it to the point to be monsters) we are the son’s of God. And for that we do not even have to agree on the details of any doctrine … the base of the doctrine lays in that.

    we just need to be Christian in our heart (even without being Christian officially by any church).

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    bernadette,

    I was not saying that Catholics are not Christians. you only highlighted part of my statement. Jim understood what I said. When I grew up in the Catholic Church, I was taught that only Catholics are true Christians because only their religion can be traced back to Christ. I said to Jim, if you are happy being called a Catholic, and belonging to that particular church system, that is fine because you are a Christian like I am, but NOT because you belong to the Catholic denomination. But, because you have the Holy Spirit like other christians. If you read all my comments, I was emphasing that all Christians are such because we have faith in Christ, and he imparted the Holy Spirit to us. And our being a Christian is not dependent on our denominational name, i.e. catholic, protestant, baptist, etc. Lilly

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit