Posts by kifoy

22

2008-Watchtower is so cheap! - books cheaper covers, smaller Calander??$$

by Witness 007 in

i've noticed since the watchtowers tax problems,and publications now being offered without a price for "donations" the quality has gone down to save money $$$$ first the new calander is half the size of the original a4 size....it's hard to write your witnessing hours!

remember the hard cover books that last forever...now paperback!!

monthly awakes and study article only watchtowers for witnesses, saves alot of paper and printing.

kifoy

The most shocking thing for me was when BIBLES became paperback...

What?
When did they start with that?

21

JW Necklaces

by fjtoth in

london, england.

jehovah's necklaces17/02/2008nurses are calling for jehovah's witnesses to wear special bracelets and necklaces so they won't be given "sinful" blood transfusions by mistake.. most of britain's 125,000 witnesses carry pocketsized cards declaring their religious beliefs.

but nurses say that in an emergency there may be no time to check a patient's pockets.. the royal college of nursing have urged the watchtower society, which represents the witnesses, to ask members to wear the bracelets or necklaces.. .

kifoy

When I was a kid, my family bought necklaces with "no blood" inscription on them.
It looked like one of those tags that soldiers have on them. Flat and rectangular.

My full name and date of birth on one side, and "NO BLOOD" inscription on the back side.

I don't remember how old I was when I got it, or how old I was when i dropped it.

52

What prompted the whopper of all Flip Flops? (Sodom & G. resurrection)

by Open mind in

in pre-studying my watchtower for this sunday, (with mary's assistance on v's thread of course), i was reminded of something i've wondered about re: the whole "will the residents of sodom & gomorrah be resurrected?

" question.. to my knowledge, this one holds the watchtower record for most number of flip-flops.

please correct me if i'm wrong.

kifoy

Leolaia:
Well, yes and no.

Thank you, Leolaia.

I find it laborious to read through great amount of English text, so I might have missed some crucial details here and there. And those scans are not the most frendly to read either.

52

What prompted the whopper of all Flip Flops? (Sodom & G. resurrection)

by Open mind in

in pre-studying my watchtower for this sunday, (with mary's assistance on v's thread of course), i was reminded of something i've wondered about re: the whole "will the residents of sodom & gomorrah be resurrected?

" question.. to my knowledge, this one holds the watchtower record for most number of flip-flops.

please correct me if i'm wrong.

kifoy

I too found the 1939 article. Image of scan can be found here: WT1939-p13

I found articles from 1941 and 1948 that indicate no resurrection:
WT1941-p367
WT1948-p219

And a lot of Watchtowers in the 30s and 40s had articles on the destruction of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah being just like the destruction of "Christendom" in Armageddon...

52

What prompted the whopper of all Flip Flops? (Sodom & G. resurrection)

by Open mind in

in pre-studying my watchtower for this sunday, (with mary's assistance on v's thread of course), i was reminded of something i've wondered about re: the whole "will the residents of sodom & gomorrah be resurrected?

" question.. to my knowledge, this one holds the watchtower record for most number of flip-flops.

please correct me if i'm wrong.

kifoy

Leolaia:
I'll see if I can pull up an earlier "No" quote than the 1955 one.

Len:
As we all know, the WT Library on CD begins at 1950. Prior to that date, we're at the mercy of scans which, to some JW's, can be subject to Photoshop forgery.

Yes, Len, you're somewhat right. But some witnesses know that you can buy the oldest Watchtower on CDs, so they can verify if they want to.

I found something in a 1952 Watchtower (June 1, 1952, p. 338):

5 It is likely that for the majority of men who have lived on the earth the time of their judgment will be in the millennial reign of Christ, at the time of the resurrection of mankind and thereafter. However, long before this many persons will have had their time of judgment, as the Scriptures show that God has brought certain judgment periods upon human society at certain times, during which God held them accountable for their course of action. That they might be really accountable at such times, he caused testimony to be given that they might know the issue and make their decision, by which they would determine their destiny, independent of any inherited condemnation from Adam. One of such judgment periods was the flood of Noah’s day, prior to which Noah preached righteousness. Another was the fiery end of Sodom and Gomorrah, which cities saw warning miracles by angels and heard testimony from Lot before the rain of fire fell. In Jesus’ day it was a time of judgment and he warned certain Jewish cities of a fate like that upon Sodom and Gomorrah, and judged certain scribes and Pharisees fit for the eternal destruction of Gehenna. Our present day is also a time of judgment, and by the time Armageddon strikes all persons then living will have fixed their destiny.
[...]
7 [...] Peter cited these ancient examples of cutting-off to show the fate of false prophets and false teachers in the Christian congregation, who brought in destructive sects and disowned Christ, and who thereby were “bringing speedy destruction upon themselves”. Who will contend that the destruction of such defilers of the Christian congregation is not final? The ancient destructions upon Noah’s contemporaries and Sodom and Gomorrah must be just as final, else how could they illustrate the one Peter was discussing?—2 Pet. 2:1-4, NW.

I cannot quote the whole article, but I understand this as a "no"...

I also found a small passage in The Watchtower, October 1936, p. 313, that says that "Sodom is set forth as an example of those whom God will destroy at Armageddon".

Anyway.
The whole "new light" understanding (when referring to Proverbs 4:18), demands that the light gets brighter, not that the new understanding is the same as a previous understanding.

52

What prompted the whopper of all Flip Flops? (Sodom & G. resurrection)

by Open mind in

in pre-studying my watchtower for this sunday, (with mary's assistance on v's thread of course), i was reminded of something i've wondered about re: the whole "will the residents of sodom & gomorrah be resurrected?

" question.. to my knowledge, this one holds the watchtower record for most number of flip-flops.

please correct me if i'm wrong.

kifoy

For the fun of it, I just had to find the sources of this remarkable list.
Here's what I found in this short time:

1879 - Will be resurrected

The Watchtower 1979, p. 7,8:
Surely if we find their restitution mentioned you will be satisfied: But why should they not have an opportunity to obtain eternal life as well as you or the Jew? They were not wicked in the proper sense, for they did not have law or much knowledge. True, they were not righteous, but neither were you when God gave you your opportunity. Christ’s own words shall tell us that they are mot as guilt?/ in His sight as the Jews, who had more knowledge: “Woe unto thee, Capernaum, for if the mighty works which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom it would have remained unto this day.” Thus Christ’s own words teach us that thev had not had their full opportunity. “Remember,” Christ says of the Sodomites, that “God-rained down fire and destroyed them all.” So, if theii restoration is spoken of, it implies their resurrection.

1955 - Will not be resurrected

The Watchtower 15. November 1955, p. 676:
That some will not gain salvation is made clear in the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. In sentencing Adam God said: “For dust you are and to dust you will return.” That means annihilation, not salvation. Regarding Sodom and Gomorrah we are told that they “are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing” judicial everlasting punishment. At Revelation 21:8 (NW) we read that all the wicked will have their portion “in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” Nothing is said about a redemption or a resurrection from this second death.—Gen. 3:19; Jude 7, NW.

1965 - Will be resurrected

The Watchtower 1. March 1965, p. 138:
17 So the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were made a “warning example,” because they were not allowed to continue existing till the day of Jesus Christ and of Peter and Jude and fellow disciples. Not that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were condemned to Gehenna and were hurled into the “lake that burns with fire and sulphur”; but that they were made a warning example to unfaithful Christians (”ungodly persons”) who will be judicially punished with “everlasting fire” or everlasting destruction.

1967 - Will not be resurrected

The Watchtower 1. July 1967, p. 409:
How will these, having been caught, be disposed of? Will they be preserved alive? Will they be killed and buried in Hades or Sheol, which is the common grave of dead mankind, from which resurrection is possible? No, these political organizations are slated to be “hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.” This the Bible describes as the “second death.” (Rev. 20:14) It means the death from which there is no resurrection. They will be burned up root and branch, as completely gone forever as the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which Jehovah God burned up by a rain of fire and sulphur from heaven, never to be rebuilt. It is destruction in Gehenna in which God destroys both body and soul (any right or possibility of living).—Matt. 10:28; Gen. 19:23-29; 2 Pet. 2:6-9; Jude 7.

1974 - Will be resurrected

The Watchtower 8. October 1974, p. 20:
God’s dealing with Sodom and Gomorrah shows that he takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, but wants all to live, if they will just live respectfully toward their fellowman and in obedience to righteous principles. (Ezek. 33:11; Mic. 6:8) Moreover, God’s undeserved kindness and care are so great that he will bring back the people of Sodom by a resurrection, with opportunity to learn and turn around to the way of life, even as his Son stated.—Luke 10:11, 12; Matt. 11:24.

The Watchtower 15. August 1982, p. 26:
10 Sodom, Gomorrah and surrounding cities furnished a warning example “by undergoing [Jehovah God’s] judicial punishment of everlasting fire,” eternal destruction. The charred ruins of at least Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim are thought to lie under the waters of the southern portion of the Salt (Dead) Sea or in that region. So neither they nor their inhabitants are still burning. Apparently the cities themselves, rather than all their inhabitants, were everlastingly destroyed, for it seems that at least some individuals once residing there will be resurrected. (Matthew 10:15; 11:24; Revelation 20:12, 13)

1988 - Will not be resurrected

The Watchtower 1. June 1988, p. 30:
There is an interesting similarity in phraseology between this description and what Jude said occurred in the case of Sodom. Furthermore, Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate that “the goats” cut off in the coming war of God will experience “everlasting cutting-off” in “the lake of fire,” which symbolizes permanent annihilation.—Revelation 20:10, 14. Consequently, in addition to what Jude 7 says, the Bible uses Sodom/Gomorrah and the Flood as patterns for the destructive end of the present wicked system. It is apparent, then, that those whom God executed in those past judgments experienced irreversible destruction.

1988 - Will be resurrected

Insight, Vol. 1 p. 985 (Gomorrah):
The apostle Peter said that by reducing Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, God condemned them, “setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come.” (2Pe 2:6) This mention by Peter and references by Jesus Christ and Jude prove that Jesus and his disciples acknowledged that these cities of the District had actually existed and that they accepted the Biblical account of them as true. Though the cities underwent “the judicial punishment of everlasting fire” (Jude 7), Jesus indicated that people of Sodom and Gomorrah would experience a resurrection to stand for judgment. He contrasted them with a city that rejected his disciples in their preaching of the Kingdom good news, saying: “It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for that city.”—Mt 10:7, 14, 15;

1989 - Will not be resurrected

Live forever... (1989) Chap. 21, p. 179:
Will such terribly wicked persons be resurrected during Judgment Day? The Scriptures indicate that apparently they will not. For example, one of Jesus’ inspired disciples, Jude, wrote first about the angels that forsook their place in heaven to have relations with the daughters of men. Then he added: “So too Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” (Jude 6, 7; Genesis 6:1, 2) Yes, for their excessive immorality the people of Sodom and of the surrounding cities suffered a destruction from which they will apparently never be resurrected.—2 Peter 2:4-6, 9, 10a.

This is of course no big deal compared to the blood question, but I find it interesting that they would bother to flip-flop this much over a no-big-deal-case.
That makes it even more interesting for me

15

ANNOUNCEMENT: My website is now up!

by B_Deserter in

if you'd like, head on over to http://skepticsannotatedwatchtower.org to check out my new website chronicling the logical flaws in watchtower literature.

i plan to do this with multiple books.

as always, comments and critique are welcome!

kifoy

Thank you. This is great!

One comment. You've only covered the first chapter yet, but I hope you will be asking more questions.
Especially for the readers that are still under some kind of mind control, questions can be powerful. You have to start to think for yourself.
And you can say just as much with a question as with a conclusion.

I'm looking forward to the next chapter!

40

Did you read the whole Bible when you were a JW?

by outofthebox in

jw
friends

after an informal poll in my congregation (and many awkward responses) i found out that almost nobody had read the whole bible ever, not even the elders (surprise!).

brothers and sisters with 20, 30, 40 and 50 years as jws don't know what the bible says.

so, if god decides that a test is coming, will they pass it?

kifoy

Yes, I read the whole Bible, at least once.
I'm a fast reader, so I skimmed through the Bible as I would any other book.

That means that I didn't really had the time to think about what I read and how it would relate to anything. I was more interested in the stories and the action

kifoy

4

3 Kings vs. Santa

by Wordly Andre in

in spain as well as most hispanic countries, presents are given on los reyes magos day, the 3 kings day and presents are given by the kings, melchor, gaspar and baltasar and not santa.

if that tradition was more popular here in america would christmas be more meaningful for you?

kifoy

So if you love presents, you should live in America, have Nothern European and Hispanic roots and marry a Dutch or something.

This way you will get presents the Dec. 6 (Dutch Sinterklaas), on Christmas Eve (Norway), Christmas Day (America) and the 3 Kings' Day (Hispanic, and Eastern Europe?)

Though, it might be too much

kifoy

[Edit: Just wanted to add Happy New Year! It's 45 minutes past midnight here ]

5

1963-Babylon The Great Has Fallen-God's Kingdom Rules--by request!

by Atlantis in

1963 babylon the great has fallen-god's kingdom rules-by request!

book: click the download link by the red arrow at the bottom of the next page.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/r7ocab *************************************************************** question booklet for babylon the great book: click the download link by the red arrow at the bottom of the next page.

kifoy

Thank you

kifoy