i have a new take on the 587/586 "controversy".
this is of course, speaking for me over 3 years after i left.
i realize that if you are first leaving, this is a big deal.
Ok Scholar. Have fun with your teaching. Thanks for the good work you do in exposing JW's to the idiodicy of WT dates and how they explain it. I still prefer school books, history books written by *gasp* college graduates, and other learned people.
Billy, please go ahead with the pyramidology. It is so ridiculous that I even doubted it when I first heard about it, till I read in the WT's of that era how Russell did indeed measure pyramids to back up 1914. No problem!
did you use wt dates as well as things found from a secular perspective?
if a witness was researching the 607 dates strictly from watchtower info, would it still become clear they are wrong?
or does the wtbs *make* the dates add up...?
Outlaw
For the past 3 years on this board, I have proven bar none, that I am the best, most well learned apostate of all time... I have consistently proven that everything I say and think is true, because a group of men told me so.
Anyone who believes otherwise is just trying to undermine everyone's faith in me as a credible source of information. After all, god isn't powerful enough preserve anything it seems in an easily referenced form. We have to rely on those YHWH hating Babylonians and Egyptians. Jehovah must hate to have to do that.
Lol. Oh well. Scholar is a mocker and a stalker, but he isn't a teacher, just a leecher (of bullcrap from a cult).
I prefer to get my facts from schoolbooks. Again folks, just go to Barnes and Noble, get a history book, and look it up yourself. Get 3 or 4, thats even better.
Then come back and listen to Scholar tell you how wrong everyone is. Its a great time! Cheers!
i have a new take on the 587/586 "controversy".
this is of course, speaking for me over 3 years after i left.
i realize that if you are first leaving, this is a big deal.
Scholar, you're as playful as a little kitten today aren't ya?
I repeat myself as a way of emphasis but apostates do the very same thing that you accuse me namely the repetition of the same tired old arguments in support of a tired, uselless dates of 586/587, provide no substantive argument in support of their dates but simply an appeal to a false, unreliable chronology of the Neo-Babylonian period.
I think you repeat yourself because thats the only thing JW's know how to do. Btw, apostates didn't invent any dates at all. Instead of rejecting what we learned at school, we actually went ahead and believed scholars and historians, you know, those pesky people who actually investigated these artifacts and cuniform tablets.
Interestingly, what you have never repeated are facts. Thats all. You do consistently repeat that everyone other then the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has it wrong. EVERYONE. To that, I commend you for your persistence, and will do my best to get you an autographed set of Stevie Wonder sunglasses.
Scholar has for these past ten years on this forum provided much detailed proof for 607 BCE and the WT publications have consistently provided all the information necessary.
No you haven't. The WT isn't reliable. Historians and scholars are. Thats why the world relies on them instead of the WT. It's really (I hesitate to say) just that simple.
Scholar, even as I take you at your word that you are a believing JW apologist, I sometimes wonder if you are a lurking, non believing JW who parrots the JW company line in an ironic attempt to show how stupid it is. If so, kudos! It works. If not, doesn't matter, it amounts to the same affect.
ever wonder why jws are such suckers for a conspiracy theory?
if you think any of their doctrines or beliefs through for long enough, there's usually some for of conspiracy thrown in.. i thought i'd give this email a whirl to test their credulity:.
are you a conspiracy theorist?
LOL!! I absolutely love this. Send it out, definitely send it out.
i have a new take on the 587/586 "controversy".
this is of course, speaking for me over 3 years after i left.
i realize that if you are first leaving, this is a big deal.
thetrueone
Just click on scholars name, and read up. I really don't want him to hijack this thread. You can see for yourself how he reasons. ("reason" is a very generous word in his case)
I take him at his word that he is a JW with a more detailed knowledge of JW eschatology and exegesis, making him more culpable then your typical JW.
many of us leave due to injustices committed inside the organization.
i did initially.
i had doubts about some doctrines for years - but not until after leaving the witnesses was i free to be able to confirm my suspicions and see that yes, i did have valid reasons to have doubts all those years .
No, I had to adjust my viewpoint to "normal setting" for me to see a lot of how JW's treat their own is unjust.
Because I was 6 ft under in bullshit, it was me having a personal disagreement at Gilead on how the GB believes most major OT characters prophetically pointed to the existence of the WTBTS and the first 3 Presidents that got me started. I knew that this wasnt "THE truth". I still allowed in my head that maybe I could do some good. I also was in the middle of Gilead, and getting stroked like I was didn't help.
Then, after I got attacked in Cameroon, I got back and said 'to hell with not going on the internet. What are they so afraid of?' And then I saw what they were afraid of. The lie concerning 1914 and the related lie of the date of Jerusalems destruction. ALL the false prophecies. The bafoonery that was C T Russell and the narcissistic cruelty that was J F Rutherford. The amazing ability to believe your own bullshit and like the smell of it that was Fred Franz. The ability to be pragmatic and finish the job of turning JW's into a money making enterprise over the well being of the people that was N H Knorr.
It wasn't until I got on these boards and participated that I understood just how much the GB and their minion elders harmed people, and then I really saw how much a part of it I had been.
just this week after being separated a little over two months....and funny cause i just got a pm from a newbie about what it is like to leave all...including your wife or husband....anyway, i spent the day with my wife and we talked about it...it is so sad....even though we are very different in natures...i again concluded there is enough in common to be happy and grow old and avoid the very high costs to both of a divorce....except we just cant figure out how to have totally separate friends and social lives....that is kinda big and may still be the deal breaker....soooooo frustrating and infuriating..........oompa.
here was my reply to the newbie pm:.
leaving was terribly hard as my wife is a wonderful and attractive person...my 22 year old son is also a good dub...and my parents are not real old yet and he is a hardcore elder.
Yup. Divorce for me was such a big regret. But, it was the right thing to do, for the reasons you stated.
2 people have to be on the same page, and willing to work through differences. JW's don't allow any compromise. I didn't want to go through with that kind of life anymore.
Wish you the best and that you can see your way through. Its not an easy process.
i have a new take on the 587/586 "controversy".
this is of course, speaking for me over 3 years after i left.
i realize that if you are first leaving, this is a big deal.
Hey my friends. Scholar frequently likes to enter discussions about the date of Jerusalems destruction and repeat himself over and over again with statements like this.
Your comments are based on ignorance and foolishness for the date of Jerusalem's destruction was the beginning of the Gentile Times ending in 1914 CE proven by the facts of modern history so the validity of 607 BCE is a matter of establihed fact.
and
For your information and for the sake of accuracy 607 BCE is proved by the following:
The Bible
Secular souces both ancient and modern
Bible scholarship both past and present
WT Publications
And notice, does not provide a single independent resource, not even one scholar (real one) not one historian, nothing. If you were to look at his posting history, you would find him to be like a skipping record, repeating the same things over and over again. Thats his game. And it is a game.
This would be akin to me maintaining that the US Constitution was signed in 1676 at Plymouth Rock. Don't believe me? I have secular sources and scholarship to back me up to. Just don't ask for names, books, nouns or verbs.
Scholar, I won't debate you. Here is your problem, and here is the problem with the JW position: You would like us to believe that with wide sweeping statements, you can argue against all historians and scholars on this subject. It is a lie. Thats all dude. A lie. I can go to any bookstore, and middle or high school, and show you the date of Jerusalems fall from books independently written. You can't. The only place you can direct anyone is to WT publications. Thats all. You lose. JW's lie. Happy New Year.
i was wrong when i was so sure i was right before.
.
i feel a responsibility but i am confused.. also, any ideas for preparing vulnerable family members prior to pulling the rug out from under them?.
Don't feel responsible. Yes, you were tricked and indoctrinated. So was I. I promise you, you haven't done what others have. I was an elder and missionary.
But you could look at it this way too... Remember Ray Franz? He was on the GB. For years, he tacitly gave support to an organization that harmed others and knowingly lied and ignored evidence, ignoring the growing voice that was his conscience that something wasn't right. At some point, he listened to that voice, and left.
Did he feel responsible? Yes, and he did what you and I and others are doing now, exposing the WTBTS for what it really is. He told his story. Did everyone leave because Ray Franz left? No. They left when they were ready. But at least a path was blazed for them. Suddenly, even though those who left were isolated, they weren't alone.
So please, don't be too hard on yourself. Blaze a trail for others in your own fashion. Do what you can. You won't be able to do what others do, and maybe you can do more then still others. It's up to you. It's exciting in a way for you to unleash your individuality.
My advice for your loved ones that you are concerned about, a small lesson I have learned and am still learning, love them. Forgive them. Forgive yourself. I don't mean for that to sound trite. But its important. Some won't always feel the way they do today, and if and when they wake up, who will they turn to?
Hopefully, you! But there is some trailblazing, some heavy lifting, some leadership to do. Leadership is a misunderstood thing, because often, it is exhibited when no one is around to observe, until you are needed for others to run to what you have built.
However, do it for yourself first. You are allowed. Don't allow looking at your past to take the attention off you. You have needs to, so don't ignore them. Heal first, and give others a picture of what that looks like. That vision of a happy you could be what will help the most!
Good luck. :)
i was wrong when i was so sure i was right before.
.
i feel a responsibility but i am confused.. also, any ideas for preparing vulnerable family members prior to pulling the rug out from under them?.
What did it take for you to discover the truth about da troof™?
If a family member sincerely telling you that your religion was wrong didn't do the trick, it is doubtful you would be able to pull it off.
Sometimes it is coincidence, other times, a direct exposure to facts can help, but it really depends on each family member.
I know I wouldn't have listened until I was ready to re-examine my beliefs honestly. If someone isn't there yet, it is best to be patient, imo.
