Doe, are you on a hunt for Morons?
AllTimeJeff
JoinedPosts by AllTimeJeff
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22
Women using birth control, getting shoes, and abandoning the kitchen.
by John Doe ingood or bad thing?
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Jehovah's Witnesses - Trained to Argue
by AllTimeJeff inalthough a cult, jehovah's witnesses should not be underestimated as to their smarts.
sometimes, exiting jw's, due to indoctrination, feel a lot of guilt for leaving.
of course, the governing body wouldn't have it any other way.. upon leaving, many for the first time feel a freedom to express themselves, which is as it should be.
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AllTimeJeff
To take a different tack on this, I'll use Farkels statement to make another point. (are we arguing?)
Argumentation is the natural offshoot of formal logic. Assertions and conclusions. If the conclusion must derive from the assertions, then the assertions must be tested to see if they are are also sound, i.e. true. Each time a logical fallacy is brought up and pointed out by an opponent in a formal debate, the fool who made it loses points. That keeps the debate honest AND on track. The winner wins on substance, not bullshit.
I would like to see that sort of debate go on in here, but then again, I would also like to believe the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus existed, too.
I agree with this in prinicple. I think I know what you are referring to Farkel (correct me if I am wrong) and that is the frequent political debates that happen on this board, usually divided on liberal vs conservative or Dems vs GOP.
There are at least two sound positions that I respect (through all of the mud slinging) in these debates. The side that says "Constitutionally, this policy is not sound. Minimum governement is what the founding fathers had in mind so free enterprise and business can drive progress."
Then there is the liberal point of view on this "Morally, if profits drive our economy and not a focus on people, then people will be abused and marginalized. We cannot rely on any kind of altruism from business, esp big business, for matters such as a decent wage or health care."
Generally speaking (aka, not specifically) these are the two starting points. It should be noted that these arguments have existed since 1787.
It is my opinion that exiting JW's sometimes take up the worst passions of both parties and attach that to their arguments as they debate, so that the tone of the debate turns from policy discussions to the basic "My god, what a d*ck you are for not agreeing with me" kinds of discussions. Though I own the fact that I have failed in keeping a respectful tone to my arguments at times, ideally, that is the goal as far as I am concerned.
In short, one can argue for the way things were, the way things were meant to be, and the way things should be. All 3, depending on the topic, could be sound points to discuss any matter.
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Jehovah's Witnesses - Trained to Argue
by AllTimeJeff inalthough a cult, jehovah's witnesses should not be underestimated as to their smarts.
sometimes, exiting jw's, due to indoctrination, feel a lot of guilt for leaving.
of course, the governing body wouldn't have it any other way.. upon leaving, many for the first time feel a freedom to express themselves, which is as it should be.
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AllTimeJeff
Interesting thoughts. Maybe I should have said "trained to debate".
There is a difference and so I thank Farkel for bringing out the semantics part of this. Typically, when 2 family members for example get upset and yell, they don't call that a debate, but an argument, though little arguing is done. Arguing is defined as presenting reasons for or against. To debate is the act of participating in a discussion with another person, likely an opponent of your view, regarding a subject.
The reason why I quoted Huxley before was because both JW's and Society at large really like getting style points for being loud and proud. But as Farkel pointed out, arguing a point in a debate for a "win" is to simply get your facts right, esp if there is only one position that is actually factual.
For JW's, its really simple, and they can debate this all they want, but they can't argue their way out of it.
- What were they teaching about 1914 when 1914 came?
- Did they or did they not use the measurement of pyramids as a primary source to back up their latest date for the rapture, 1914?
- Can a "prophet" continually change dates, have nothing happen on those dates that they implied, and still be considered a prophet? Yes or no?
- If Jehovah and Jesus chose this rag tag bunch in 1919, why did they pin all their hopes of millions never dying on the year 1925 and say that faithful men of old would be resurrected?
- Who is accountable, and who is culpable, for the dates and teachings, such as the generation of Mt 24, 1914, 1925, 1975?
You could go on and on with this. Questions with real answers don't lie. If a JW got into a discussion like this, after looking to see which exit doors he/she was closest to, their goal wouldn't be to answer the question, it would be to present their own canned question. The key to winning the debate with any JW lies in not allowing them to engage in their best strategy, changing the subject.
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Luke 21:8 - Crickets From the WTS
by LostGeneration inniv 8he replied: "watch out that you are not deceived.
for many will come in my name, claiming, 'i am he,' and, 'the time is near.
' do not follow them.. nwt (luke 21:8) he said: look out that you are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, i am he, and, the due time has approached.
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AllTimeJeff
Yup, Luke 21:8 is commented on in WT Library about as much as Maccabes 1:1. Wonder why?
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My Republican Friends
by JimmyPage ini have a jw friend who i watch sports with.
his wife is not a dub.
he has a daughter from a previous marriage who is gay.
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AllTimeJeff
Journey on, we all listen and like what we like. I listened to all of it. I invite anyone to do the same. He said what he said, and I consider what he said racist.
I am not calling listeners of Rush, or you Journey on, racist, but Rush absolutely spews racist politics.
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My Republican Friends
by JimmyPage ini have a jw friend who i watch sports with.
his wife is not a dub.
he has a daughter from a previous marriage who is gay.
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AllTimeJeff
Sounds good Farkel. Being an agitator is good when you are fighting for civil rights or the freedom of your country. If Rush stuck to limited government, that would be fine. Anyone can listen to him and see whether his schtick matches how he likes to portray himself. I am sure that light skinned blacks, dark skinned blacks and the gay and lesbian community would feel differently.
No straw man was trying to be made here. Rush is a card carrying member of the right wing talking heads, he is their leader imo.
From that point of view however, agitators on both sides would certainly serve a useful purpose, including those that are insisting that universal health care should be a moral imperative in this country. That is some agitation I can get behind.
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My Republican Friends
by JimmyPage ini have a jw friend who i watch sports with.
his wife is not a dub.
he has a daughter from a previous marriage who is gay.
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AllTimeJeff
(click on the link to go to the webpage which embeds the audio of Rush being himself)
(Rush Limbaugh enters the room).
Did anyone else feel a chill?
On his radio program Wednesday morning, Rusty said that President Barack Obama and company would use Haiti to get closer to the “light-skinned and dark-skinned black [communities] in this country” while adding that the U.S. has “already donated to Haiti. It’s called the U.S. income tax.”
Listen to excerpts here and here.
If you were wondering who would be so cynical as to suggest that a president would use a monumental tragedy to gain support amongst a group of voters who already overwhelmingly support him--to the tune of 89 percent who view him favorably, natch--well, now you have your answer.
There’s perhaps a point to be made about private organizations and individuals helping out on their own. But, of course, local churches and government have been helping each other out since Katrina hit. It’s not like they have to be mutually exclusive or anything.
But hey, why deal with subtleties when canned outrage will
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My Republican Friends
by JimmyPage ini have a jw friend who i watch sports with.
his wife is not a dub.
he has a daughter from a previous marriage who is gay.
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AllTimeJeff
Farkel, I know you are an independent thinker, but did you seriously compare Jefferson to Limbaugh?
I never said that Limbaugh didn't have the right to his opinions. It's just that the intellect behind them likely comes from a mole on his @$$.
Have you heard his racist comments concerning Obama and the Haiti earthquake this week? Yup, the 2nd coming of Jefferson alright.
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My Republican Friends
by JimmyPage ini have a jw friend who i watch sports with.
his wife is not a dub.
he has a daughter from a previous marriage who is gay.
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AllTimeJeff
Journey on, I think you are being too kind. There are many other conservatives who make the same points without his intent. His intent, other then making himself rich, is to pander to a particular kind of conservatism that is neither pragmatic or accomodating of others, not even moderate Republicans.
In any case, it is up to each person to choose who they listen to. (obviously) But Rush deserves the criticism he gets, every bit, imo.
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My Republican Friends
by JimmyPage ini have a jw friend who i watch sports with.
his wife is not a dub.
he has a daughter from a previous marriage who is gay.
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AllTimeJeff
Journey-on, he is an agitator. His rhetoric against everything not conservative is divisive. He has a right to it, thankfully, he really is in a minority.
Still, if that is the conservatism one espouses, I would have a problem with it, for what thats worth.
To use an understatement of the decade, he is not a reasonable pundit.