Posts by AllTimeJeff

69

Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination

by AllTimeJeff in

this is a complex question, and i just want to get a discussion started on the message of jehovah's witnesses and how it relates to their adventist roots, and esp calvinism.. bear with me, i will try to be concise.. we all know that while jehovah's witnesses like to deny adventist roots, that it is clear that according to them, the man jesus selected to get the whole thing started, c t russell, was heavily influenced by adventist ideas, esp the (adventist) idea that has really never left them; the idea that somehow, a time date or period can be inferred from the bible if you read certain scriptures through an adventist lens.

(thus, the 2520 years, 7 gentile times, etc.).

so while this is relatively well known, there is a concept that jehovah's witnesses teach against, yet practice.

AllTimeJeff

Paul, I got that a lot, and wondered about myself for a while. Ultimately, I rejected for the simple reason that it would be cruel of god to allow life to come into existence when he knew already whether or not they would be obedient, have faith, etc.

And perhaps you know through experience that a person's life history can dramatically alter and affect what they can believe in, what they are willing to believe in.

So would god reject someone who could never be a JW just because they were abused as kids? Dirt poor? Never had the chance in the first place?

I don't believe that could ever be true.

However, it is fascinating to me how JW's practice something they don't teach, without realizing or understanding it. (as usual)

69

Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination

by AllTimeJeff in

this is a complex question, and i just want to get a discussion started on the message of jehovah's witnesses and how it relates to their adventist roots, and esp calvinism.. bear with me, i will try to be concise.. we all know that while jehovah's witnesses like to deny adventist roots, that it is clear that according to them, the man jesus selected to get the whole thing started, c t russell, was heavily influenced by adventist ideas, esp the (adventist) idea that has really never left them; the idea that somehow, a time date or period can be inferred from the bible if you read certain scriptures through an adventist lens.

(thus, the 2520 years, 7 gentile times, etc.).

so while this is relatively well known, there is a concept that jehovah's witnesses teach against, yet practice.

AllTimeJeff

This is a complex question, and I just want to get a discussion started on the message of Jehovah's Witnesses and how it relates to their Adventist roots, and esp Calvinism.

Bear with me, I will try to be concise.

We all know that while Jehovah's Witnesses like to deny Adventist roots, that it is clear that according to them, the man Jesus selected to get the whole thing started, C T Russell, was heavily influenced by Adventist ideas, esp the (adventist) idea that has really never left them; the idea that somehow, a time date or period can be inferred from the bible if you read certain scriptures through an adventist lens. (thus, the 2520 years, 7 gentile times, etc.)

So while this is relatively well known, there is a concept that Jehovah's Witnesses teach against, yet practice. The idea of predestination.

Calvinism in particular teaches that it doesn't really matter too much (depending on which church you go to) what you do. You are immedietely born a sinner (the doctrine of total depravity) and that as a result, it is only a result of gods mercy whether or not you receive salvation. While it is up to you to respond to the gospel (from the Calvinistic lens), ultimately, only a person predestined to believe and exercise faith will ever respond in the first place, thus making obedience and the ability to exercise faith something only god can give.

Sound familiar?

While Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach predestination as a point of dogma, they do teach via experiences at assemblies and even imbedded in the teaching of the 144,000 elect, that predestination takes place.

When you hear that (damn old) experience of "I was praying and just then, JW's knocked on my door." or if you ever told somone one who showed interest, "Jehovah saw what was in your heart, and drew you to him", that is a bit of Calvinistic predestination.

The implication is simple: Only a small select few have the opportunity to even listen to the message of "Jehovah's people." And the ones that do listen, they are "drawn" to the organization.

I just find it fascinating that while dogmatically, JW's deny Calvinistic predestination, they preach and teach it as a matter of practice. Any comments on this?

8

What do you think of THESE quotes by Ayn Rand? (not her--her quotes)

by Terry in

"everyone has the right to make his own decision/s, but none has the right to force his decision on others.

('the virtue of selfishness', chapter 12) {wmail issue #10}.

"in any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit.".

AllTimeJeff

Marked for later.

40

COMPLAINT DEPARTMENT: now open for business

by Terry in

jw
friends

.

here is your chance to complain.. what is really bothering you and what would you like to see happen?.

go on, let it out; let it all out.

AllTimeJeff

I used to sleep 8 hours at a time. I am in my mid 30's now, and can no longer do that most nights. And it pisses me off.

I actually have been dealing with a bit of writers block lately on my JW blogs. That sucks.

I am out of good beer tonight. Time for a Miller Lite.

63

Separating saucer section...General Order 14. [Borg cubes inbound!--Part II]

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

captain code named sd-7.

self-destruct code 0-0-0-alpha-gamma-1.

this will be my final entry on jehovahs-witness.net.

AllTimeJeff

If you're still reading.

Your pain is real. I am glad you let us know how you are feeling. The truth hurts. And your experience is exactly why I left the way I did.

I don't say that to suggest that your pain and your circumstances are anywhere near mine. But that scene with the elders is what I would have been faced with. I knew my wife wouldn't leave, at least easily, nor did I feel it my responsibility to take the woman I loved, and change her mind.

She was, is, and always will be of her own mind. It was never mine, it never will be mine. She has to accept responsibility for the stuff she believes, even if it is total bullshit.

None of which makes anyone feel better.

Dude, I am going to go out on a limb, if you are still reading this. Feel free to totally disregard what I am about to say.

First of all, be open to the possibility that you will feel differently tomorrow. I had a nervous breakdown or two right after I pulled the plug. It was total hell. It doesn't mean you are damaged beyond repair. It's your brains way of telling you that you have been hurt and injured emotionally. It's ok (within reason) to be sad about that. Of course it is.

Once the intense pain is left, might I suggest that being selfish is not only the one thing you can do, but it might be the best thing you can do?

Right now, your expectations and dreams need to be adjusted. You can still have a happy life. Will it be different then what you at one time thought? Sure. No one can change that.

But you have a daughter who just may not believe the bullshit. She'll need someone to help her. She only has one dad. Maybe its for the best if ultimately you decide to seperate. Maybe you'll figure out a way to make it work. If you feel though that you can't go on living like this, you are well within your rights to seek a divorce in my opinion.

Here's some rationale: You should have an expectation to expect a minimum amount of humanity from your wife. It is unfortunate that she feels as she does. That isn't your responsibility though. The hard truth is, you aren't changing her. She wants to be a JW more then she wants to be a good wife. Ultimately, the borg did that to her, but she allowed that to happen, and that is on her. It's not on you.

Both of you could be better parents if you at least seperate and give things a chance to cool down. Maybe in a few months, that seperation becomes permanent, maybe it doesn't. But two parents making each other crazy is the last thing from healthy, esp if it makes you unable to be stable in dealing with your kids.

Also, you need to accept the fact that learning that your former religion is not true is really a difficult, traumatic thing. It fu*cked me in the head pretty good. (just read the topics I posted and argued on). If this means anything to you, it is normal and expected for you to have this reaction.

You can't be a good dad until you take care of yourself. I got therapy. I got help. You can and should too. It took me a while. But I got better over time. I was able to talk about and deal with my emotions.

This is all one mans opinion, who just wanted to share a similar experience, and to tell you that I am sending good thoughts your way. I hope in the next day or two, you will check in, and hope that at time you feel a little better. PM me if you'd like. Thanks bro.

29

What do people do in a discussion that ticks you off?

by Terry in

jw
friends

we all enjoy an interesting discussion.

but, sooner or later it seem inevitable that somebody comes along and throws a monekywrench into the mechanism and the huge engine sputters to a halt.. what do people do in a discussion that ticks you off and stops the flow of conversation and turns it from being productive to unproductive?.

is it as simple as disagreeing with you?.

AllTimeJeff

I know the feeling.

I missed this one. I hate the fact that some people are unwilling to be wrong, or to reconsider their beliefs, or even say "I haven't thought of that." "I don't know." "Let me get back to you on that."

23

If You Really Want to Bring Down Jehovah's Witnesses (for your peace of mind)

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

get them to think.. do you have loved ones?

friends?

stuck in the cult?.

AllTimeJeff

Family ties have nothing to do with the mental freedom you allow yourself to disagree.

Even if the best one can do because of family is a fade, at least you know WHY you are doing it, and that if push came to shove, you will get that blood transfusion, you will call the police on that pedophile.

Being stuck in as a nominal member still can be alright if they are fading. At least they are doing it for reasons that are their own.

23

If You Really Want to Bring Down Jehovah's Witnesses (for your peace of mind)

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

get them to think.. do you have loved ones?

friends?

stuck in the cult?.

AllTimeJeff

Get them to think.

Do you have loved ones? Friends? Stuck in the cult?

Get them to think.

And remember, the history of the world is littered with people who go through some, most, or even all of their lives without thinking. If they don't think now, it doesn't mean they won't think at some point.

So the attack is like water on rock, small ideas pounding on something that appears impenetrible, but in reality, is slowly giving ground to the natural forces against it, forces that will ultimately bring them down,.

But bringing down the borg becomes nothing more then an exercise in Ahab chasing the whale if you only think of it as revenge. The best thing that can happen is that for those who are willing, they think, and live the lives that they choose.

It's not about the borg. It's about the people inside. You won't get all of them, esp those who don't want to think. But for those that do, help them. Don't make it too personal, but give them some facts and ideas.

Ideas represent the best chance for that to happen.

55

Why Jehovah's Witnesses Are Discouraged From Using the Internet

by AllTimeJeff in

at a recent series of circuit assemblies, the governing body put out warnings on what in their view is the latest danger from satan, designed to break the faith of jehovah's witnesses everywhere.. facebook.. yes, thats right, apparantly, the gb is concerned because a lot of people are having "facebook sex".

they are meeting old friends who aren't jehovah's witnesses and getting it on with whomever would willingly sleep with them.

evidentally, the gb would like their flock to believe that when jw's get on facebook and other social networking sites, fornication happens.. now, this is news.

AllTimeJeff

Just a further thought about sex and the internet.

DUH! Yes, porn is everywhere.

And I think the GB would rather have their flock visit a porn site then an "apostate" website. To them, ideas are much more dangerous then sex.

But you can't say that without looking even more ridiculous then you normally do. So the trick is this

The GB thinks "We can't say that ideas are bad. But we want to get people off the internet. I know, we will just maintain that everyone who goes on these sites commit fornication. We know it isn't true, but if we can pull it off, they won't be exposed to those who would expose us for who we are."

We all know the GB doesn't really give a damn about their flocks faith. It's just that this faith represents the best control mechanism the GB has. Thats what they want to keep, for their own purposes.

32

Knock Knock...."Who's there?" They came to MY DOOR!!

by Terry in

it is a peculiar experience.. once you are out of the kingdom hall forever and haven't been in field service for many years...... a knock comes at your front door and you answer it only to find:.

jehovah's witnesses!.

that happened to me......finally.. in the last decade i don't think i've encountered anything other than mormons or drug ministry fund raisers at my door.. but--this time, it was the real thing.. it was two sisters and they weren't much older than their 20's.. they didn't know i was satan himself, of course and i was reluctant to interrupt them and tell them.. what to do---what to do?

AllTimeJeff

Trust me, you shook the young girls tree. And that elder too. I'll tell you why. Information, even if it is first considered "bad" or somehow demonized, doesn't exit the brain, it is merely compartmentalized and stored until it is needed again.

Thats the problem the GB has with the brain as a whole. They think they control thoughts, when in reality, they only control actions. I realize the two are connected, don't get me wrong. But they don't replace or eliminate infomation, they merely supercede it with a false authority value dynamic. (aka, the GB's thoughts are worth more then your thoughts)

40 years ago, it was perceived as more reasonable to think the GB knew more then you, and that to ignore contrary information was honorable. Not anymore.

For what this is worth, well done!