Amazing how quickly MTS disappeared once Teddy died....
AllTimeJeff
JoinedPosts by AllTimeJeff
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66
Highlights of Annual Meeting 2010
by elderelite infor those who are interested, the following changes were announced yesterday at the agm.
1) mts school has been done away with.
a) in its place two new schools have been formed.
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35
Things That Matter and Things That Don't
by AllTimeJeff inbeing a jehovah's witness at any time and at any level is a major head f*ck.
the reason is that it obscures what is important and causes you to focus on what doesn't matter.. i've moved on from my jw experience.
it's a shame that i found myself a born in, taught to focus on things that don't matter.
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AllTimeJeff
I am fascinated by how my views of JW's have changed through the years, and their affects on me. That is what motivated me to write this.
There is no doubt that when anyone first leaves, its going to be an adjustment. In addition, there is a lot of residual problems associated with living and thinking as a JW, and it causes many problems at work, in relationships, and how one views themselves.
What matters when you first leave is simply to leave, and get your head right. That isn't an automatic guarantee. The GB likes to seize on as examples those who have problems if they are disfellowshipped or leave on their own, never admitting that they caused the problems in the first place.
There is no substitute for what time will teach you, but hopefully, some perspective while you go through these adjustments can help a ton.
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35
Things That Matter and Things That Don't
by AllTimeJeff inbeing a jehovah's witness at any time and at any level is a major head f*ck.
the reason is that it obscures what is important and causes you to focus on what doesn't matter.. i've moved on from my jw experience.
it's a shame that i found myself a born in, taught to focus on things that don't matter.
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AllTimeJeff
Because these topics are frequently and passionately debated on this board and others, here are some more thoughts.
MATTERS:
That you answer the god question and what being spiritual means to you.DOESN'T MATTER:
That other people find other paths. I certainly don't agree with most organized religion as to how it herds people into group think. That is dangerous to me. At the same time, the traditional church and feeling close to a "higher power" has real and tangible benefits. It isn't an easy thing to figure out, and agreement will never come. It also doesn't matter if some self righteous people insist they have it right, they know best, or that their religion is the one. We've been down that road before. It's good enough to know that there are tons of people who feel they are right and right with god, and that you aren't. Don't sweat it. They aren't changing you, and you aren't changing them.MATTERS:
That you stay abreast of current events, political or otherwise, and contribute to your community. Or if you decide you shouldn't, thats ok too.DOESN'T MATTER:
That people disagree. Listen, we live in a democracy. The strength and weakness is the same. We can be ourselves and have our own thoughts and vote. That means that "unity" or agreement is hard to come by. If you disagree with political views, the only thing I can say is, don't be a jerk about it. Conservatives, liberals, moderates and apathetics can agree to disagree. Or at least you can.Don't argue just for the rush it gives you. Arguing with people over the internet about JW's, politics, and religion can be beneficial. But it shouldn't be your only hobby.
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19
People of the Lie
by Farkel inthis topic was inspired by another recent thread started by ak jeff.
the excerpt below is from the book "people of the lie", by the late m. scott peck, who also authored the best-seller "the road less traveled.
" "people of the lie" is about the nature of evil, and dashed all my previously held notions about what evil was.. you would do yourself a favor if your attention span is long enough to take the time to read this, because as you do, i want you to relate what is being said directly to the leaders of the watchtower society, past and present.
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AllTimeJeff
Great piece.
The genius of JW's isn't their claim that they are prophets.
Their strategy is essentially has nothing to do with what they got right. Rather, their arguement is that they are chosen.
If they are chosen, then it doesn't matter if they are right. Basically, their baseline arguement is "God likes us best."
Getting it right? Not as important as getting made.
Truly evil.
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AllTimeJeff
Brother Dan, you should copy and paste your story into its own thread for the benefit of others. I missed you in Patterson. I was in class 119 in 2005.
For anyone who cares about my opinion on this, people like madjw at best are probably mischievous JW's who don't really believe and are very well aware that a group of former JW's, even and esp in the cyber world of the internet, are very easy to upset, and people like madjw get off on that.
At worst, he is as he says he is, and it makes no difference. He still is here to upset.
You have to realize something about most JW's who come here. Their view of former JW's is poor at best. Is it really worth it to allow them to upset you?
It is true, you deserve what you put up with. We also deserve how we feel if we enable people who are shit stirrers to get to us.
People like madjw are excellent practice people for how to deal with JW's in general. Just don't let them get to you. They don't matter, and they aren't worth it.
They will say things that we know aren't true, claim that they are right. So what?
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AllTimeJeff
Hey, Jeff- you don't have to be so NICE about me....
Really? Are you sure? Well with your permission then......
Didn't your mamma teach you to just say "NO!" to drugs?
Well yes. To most drugs. She advised me to avoid the Kool Aid you've been drinking.... You probably know where that is going....
Nothing you said is true; at least SOME of what the whiners say IS....
Nothing I said is true? I am so disappointed that I don't get your sterling and shiny badge of approval. Hold on while I get a Kleenex.....
So you didn't underline your Watchtower for tomorrow? Maybe you studied at your parents dining room table. It's all good bro.... You should really get back to studying though.... I know its really deep to have to memorize the answers for tomorrow. Have fun!!!!
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AllTimeJeff
Hey MadJW
I was trying to think of a clever insult, since you are into not so clever shit stirring, no mater what you call it. But I really couldn't do better then being honest.
You defend a cult. How do I know its a cult? First, I was in it. Second, I left... because it was a cult. Hundreds of millions of people have had the opportunity to join the cult. They didn't. Those that research the history of the cult and of the Presidents of the WTBTS read up and run the opposite way screaming.
You talk to people who have been hurt by the cult just to stir up painful feelings. You are a mocker. You don't care about truth, and you sure as hell don't care about people.
Now for my guesses...
It is my sincere guess that you are either living in your parents basement (again.) Don't worry, the recession will be over in a couple of years. Maybe you aren't 19 yet and are writing this from your parents basement. Probably highlighting your Watchtower lesson for tomorrow so it looks like you studied. Don't worry. The recession will be over in a couple of years, then you can learn how to clean windows for a living while you spend an inordinate amount of time on forbidden JW websites and auxilliary pioneer, hoping one day to achieve the level of "elders b*tch", aka "Ministerial Servant".
Since you like to share your opinions here, I would like to share mine about you. You are full of crap. I would call you a pinata, but hitting you wouldn't cause anything to happen other then a foul stench, and probably the expulsion of a bunch of sour patch kids.
Ciao!
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35
Things That Matter and Things That Don't
by AllTimeJeff inbeing a jehovah's witness at any time and at any level is a major head f*ck.
the reason is that it obscures what is important and causes you to focus on what doesn't matter.. i've moved on from my jw experience.
it's a shame that i found myself a born in, taught to focus on things that don't matter.
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AllTimeJeff
There are catch phrases that the Governing Body uses to trip up their flock. Like "independent thinking." It is absolutely amazing to be out for 4 years now and to just shake my head when I realized as an elder I was telling people to blindly follow a bunch of delusional men. To give any critical thought would be prideful, satanic, and wrong. After all, when Satan engaged in independent thinking, that's when the whole mess at the Garden of Eden began.
You remember that mess don't you? That the world became alienated from god because an inexperienced woman with a rocking body was tricked into eating a piece of fruit from a forbidden tree by a talking snake Satan used, then used her allure to get her husband to eat from it too. Since that time, we are all screwed.....
Anyway, regardless of where you stand on using your brain, it's important to realize that everytime we do something for ourselves, it isn't selfish. I am constantly reminded of something else I learned, you can't really love others until you love yourself.
What a profound thought. But it is so true. If you don't love yourself, at best, you will be a co dependent follower of others, or a cynical, not so nice to be around grump.
If you love yourself, and have proper self esteem, you are then in possession of yourself, and can love others. That matters a lot!
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Things That Matter and Things That Don't
by AllTimeJeff inbeing a jehovah's witness at any time and at any level is a major head f*ck.
the reason is that it obscures what is important and causes you to focus on what doesn't matter.. i've moved on from my jw experience.
it's a shame that i found myself a born in, taught to focus on things that don't matter.
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AllTimeJeff
Some Things Matter, Some Things Don't
Being a Jehovah's Witness at any time and at any level is a major head f*ck. The reason is that it obscures what is important and causes you to focus on what doesn't matter.
I've moved on from my JW experience. It's a shame that I found myself a born in, taught to focus on things that don't matter. In fact, I really think that the years since my exit has taught me one of the greatest lessons that I can share. (as usual, for what its worth coming from me)
There are things that matter, really matter. And the opposite is also true. There are many things that don't matter, even if people, groups, political parties and religions insist that they do matter.
As an example, take the insane reasoning behind the JW preaching work. At every Kingdom Hall meeting it is stressed that "preaching" is a life saving work.
Whenever you attach phrases like "life saving work" to anything, that means it matters, right?
You would also expect something with "life saving work" attached to it to have some real urgency. Except that in JW land, it doesn't matter. If it did.....
....you wouldn't have 8 year old's offering colorful magazines with a brief 30 second presentation, then depend on that kids poor mom to keep records so that the 8 year old can have a "magazine route", "count their hours" "be a publisher", and thus, "set an example" for other kids in the Kingdom Hall.
Wasn't it about saving the householders life? So why entrust this to an 8 year old?
The fact of the matter is, JW's have taught things that don't really matter as being important. There is nothing life saving about offering a magazine, whose teachings and contents have gone through at least five generational wholesale changes since its inception in 1879.
What matters to the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses is that you stay busy doing things that matter to them. Does it save anyone's life? Nope.
The above is one of many examples of the twisted, deluded thinking patterns that exiting JW's must overcome. To not deal with that deluded thinking will cause you to live your life as a life unexamined. Unable to tell the difference, you will continue to depend on other voices, other groups, other thoughts, to tell you what matters.
Until you take the time to decide what matters to you, nothing else really matters.
Over the years, it is my observation that recently detatched former JW's have difficulty "telling the difference". While as a JW, we used to make wholesale judgements on "worldly people" (heretofore called normal), in general, we continue to do the same thing.
It sucks to feel different and alienated.
But it is imperative to try and figure out what worldly/normal people long ago figured out about JW's. Which is, that JW's and all of their teachings are crap.
I hate to put it so bluntly, but in general, most normal (oops, I almost said worldly) people really couldn't give a rats ass about what the leadership of JW's say. "Oh, we are going to die? For not taking a Watchtower from your 8 year old daughter? Ok. I have a lunch appointment. See ya..." Not another moment wasted on bullcrap teachings of a cult that don't matter.
I realize that exiting JW's don't have the luxury at first of being able to properly view their former religious compatriots in the proper context. There are other consequences though that take time, and it is good to at least mentally acknowledge them.
I am not talking about trying on different points of view or lifestyles. Thats trying to grow as a person. What I am talking about is simply what dominates our thinking. What we obsess about that doesn't change anything, that upsets us, that paralyzes us.
Being reactionary is what kept us as a JW in the first place. Never proactively thinking, we swallowed whole (to be purged later) all of the crap we were told to think, say, and do.
Often, being reactionary continues. We get upset, obsessed, about things that don't matter and that we have no control over. We worry about people that don't matter, even if they don't care about us. They only care how they can use us.
Exiting JW's often have "USE ME" still stamped on their forehead. Fortunately, it isn't tatood, and it can be taken off with time and purposeful effort.
If people don't like us, or agree with us, its important to realize that they don't matter. I am not saying you are right. You could be as much of an A-hole as the elder who pisses you off every time you think about him. I own the fact that at my worst, I can be a bit of a stubborn jerk. We all have that to us.
But hopefully, we are aiming to be our best. If that is the case, then at our best, we will learn to be able to tell the difference as to what matters, what is important, as opposed to what isn't. Some people matter, others don't. So don't sweat it.
Say, speaking of people who disagree or don't like you, have you ever been shunned by a Jehovah's Witness? Doesn't matter. You know why? You can't control it. Also, Jehovah's Witnesses opinion of you doesn't matter.
You know what else doesn't matter? Any family who doesn't understand or appreciate that being a family is more important then being a cult. Even if they are duped, it doesn't matter. Don't waste your time on the duped. If its meant to be, they will come to you. If it doesn't, surround yourself with people who love you for who you are.
While the following list isn't exhaustive, they represent my thoughts as to what matters and what doesn't. Maybe you can add to this, for the benefit of exiting JW's who have to go through the process and learn what matters and what doesn't.
IT MATTERS:
That you are no longer a JW.DOESN'T MATTER:
How that happened. Maybe you left like me and blew up the bridge on purpose after realizing it was a big freaking lie. Others get kicked out, disfellowshipped, and then after suffering all that's associated with that, learn after the fact that JW's are a lying cult that only cares about their own corporate existence. Doesn't matter. At least you are out of the bear cage at the zoo.IT MATTERS:
To be honest about JW's. Yes, the people are in general, nice. I guess. But their teachings are wrong, and their culture is toxic. Nothing wrong with pointing that out.DOESN'T MATTER:
If JW's are "brought down" "destroyed" or "outlawed". Whatever. Read Moby Dick and see if its worth a life dedicated to revenge. Did you figuratively lose a limb? Ok. You are still alive. There is still your future. You can't get in your Delorean, go back in time, and bitch slap yourself for the decisions you made. The only constructive thing to do is learn the lessons going forward for as long as you draw breath on this blue orb you inhabit.IT MATTERS:
That you have an opinion.DOESN'T MATTER:
If people agree or disagree. Yeah, there are consequences for thinking on your own. You could be wrong. Of course, to quote Billy Joel from his song 'Vienna': "Oh you can see where you're wrong, you know you can't always see when you're right." Sieze the day. Do whats right for you. Is that college? Moving and starting over? Pursuing a dream or career? Go for it. You are right. If whats right for you involves robbing a bank or becoming a drug dealer, well, then what I am about to say does matter. Don't. Duh.IT MATTERS:
That you want to be happy.DOESN'T MATTER:
If your happiness comes from the approval of others or other things out of your control, even if its close friends or family or other circumstances. If you can't/won't be happy until people you can't control like you or approve of you, then schedule unahappiness in your calander for oh, the next several years until you decide they don't matter. Like my mom told me before she died "Be happy." It really is a decision to make. It's not as easy as that, but it is a decision to make, and we all can do it and at least start down that road.IT MATTERS:
To work, pay your bills and be responsibleDOESN'T MATTER:
That you get rich. If you can, GREAT! If you can't be rich, its ok to learn to be content. We all share one thing in common with Bill Gates or Warren Buffet. Right now, they are sitting on a chair, with a computer nearby. Probably watching TV. Are you? You are rich. Don't give into envy. Work hard, and enjoy what you have. Rich people and poor people sit in one chair at a time, in one room at a time. It's all good.IT MATTERS:
That you love them and if necessary, forgive them.DOESN'T MATTER:
If they don't respond. Realize that love isn't co-dependency. You are allowed to love people and move on with your life.IT MATTERS:
That I wrote this. (to me it matters)DOESN'T MATTER:
If you didn't make it to the end of this long, stream of consciousness opinion piece. ;) -
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Let's settle this for once and for all...... is atheism a belief, a non-belief or an anti-belief?
by Quillsky inmy opinion is that atheism is not a belief.
it is a belief in no belief..
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AllTimeJeff
Essan, it is my opinion that you are a poor debater.
You admit to being agnostic, after the fact. You find atheists hypocritical, yet disguise your own beliefs or stance in this debate. I find that digingenuous, as if by provoking others, you prove your point. The only thing that proves to me is, you get off on other people's perceived emotions.
Allow me to respond to your relevant (and some of the irrelevant) remarks addressed to my last response.
Jeff: "To sit behind your keyboard, knowing you were an agnostic, but morphing into a theistic position for the sake of "argument", is not in of itself a virtue."
That's nonsense Jeff. What on earth makes you think that any challenge of the definition of "Atheism" means " morphing into a theistic position". This just reveals your own prejudiced assumption that any challenge to Atheism as you define is it a "theistic" thing to do.
Essan, when one challenges a theistic position as you have, yet hides their agnostic stance, what choice is left for reasonable people reading this? That you are either a theist of some sort, or possibly, an @$$hole. Perhaps both. Don't get all snitty when you do not declare yourself at the door, and others, in a well meaning attempt to engage you, try to add context to your statements.
In short, get over yourself. If you feel misunderstood somehow on that score, you have only yourself to blame.
I find as a deist plenty to challenge atheists on. Specifically, I like to engage atheists on the matter of what it means to be a spiritual person, to have meaning in life without a god or organized religion to point a way to do so, etc. It also is apparant that the human experience yearns for higher meaning. I allow that to possibly mean a higher power exists on some plane......
You as an agnostic challenge atheists simply because their attitude seems to piss you off. Since your attitude has obviously pissed me off, I can only mirror your "cleverness" by asking, WTF? Atheism IS limited. We agree on that, or seem to. What you seem incapable of doing is engaging an atheist at any level other then to say, "You can't prove god doesn't exist." So what do you want, for an atheist to stop being an atheist, or to stop pointing out that god doesn't exist?
There are so many rich levels to this to discuss, but you seem determined to mock atheists instead of engaging them. I agree that theists can be similarly mocked. But it isn't the same thing. There is a lot more honesty on the atheist level, and on that score, I am solidly with the atheists.
Jeff "Lastly, when one leaves everything to the imagination, one deserves what various imaginations casts upon them. In this case, you left no one a choice but to imagine you were a theist apologist in this discussion. What you really were, (with all respect) was a camaflouged debater, hell bent on arguing against atheists, just because, you know, they are so hypocritical. (to that I say, whatever, with all respect)"
Sorry Jeff, but that's bollocks. There is no need to "imagine" anything unless one wants to indulge in the ad hominem, as you did.
I am sorry, but this is absolute bullcrap. I engaged in no such thing. You keep missing the part about context in your statements. Any reasonable person would be asking "Why does Essan challenge atheism?" 99% of the time, it is because they are theists. The other 1% evidentally represent whatever you think you are. It isn't imagining. You just want to stimulate a discussion. (nothing wrong with that) by attacking the definition of atheism (nothing wrong with that). A task that is typically done by theists (nothing wrong with that) Except you are an agnostic. (nothing wrong with that either.) But you get pissed off because you were an assumed theist and you were *gasp* actually an agnostic. GOTCHA!!! Boy aren't you clever.
Do you know why we didn't know you were an agnostic? Because you didn't say so you idiot!
I'm not really interested in the relative merits of the Atheism and Theism.
That much is now clear.
I see Atheism and Theism as suffering from the same basic error, just to differing degrees.
Well, it took you 10 pages and a lot of erroneous conclusions to get to your opinion. Conciseness is not your gift.
Lastly, please allow me a poke at agnosticsm. I do find it a very honest place, and can respect that. It is also a much easier place to inhabit mentally. I don't find it a sort of intellectual throne though. This debate leaves me wondering whether or not it is people who make conclusions in life that offend you. Since it is clear that atheists and theists have done that, the one lack in agnosticism is that there is no conclusion to be drawn. It is the ultimate "whatever."
I think that is fine. I am in no way condemning that. But there are good reasons to respect the moderate opinions of both sides of the argument. Esp with atheists, who are only pointing out that, in light of a lack of any evidence, god doesn't exist. I wouldn't argue with an atheist on that score. I would lose.
Whats the point? To define atheism as a belief in something, when it is in actuality a statement based on available evidence that there is no god, is ridiculous.
I don't agree with atheists. I don't rule out god. I see evidence of something, but hell, I am not arguing for it at all.
What is more important to me is, where are we "spiritually." If you don't like that word, then to put it another way, where are we in pursuing meaning in our life, that adds quaility to our life, and to the lives that cross our path?
Debates like this have limited value, other then revealing a little, of where we are.
I don't doubt for a fact Essan that, like me and all others on this board, you will grow from your current position. I wish you well on that quest.