This is not new. This is almost word for word from the old ks91, and the same questions about what spiritual association means continues. And again, its all up to the interpretation of the local body of elders, the CO, and the desk man responsible for that area who would get the letter....
AllTimeJeff
JoinedPosts by AllTimeJeff
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You will no longer be disfellowshipped for associating with a disfellowshipped person.
by shepherd in"if members of the congregation are known to.
have undue association with disfellowshipped.
or disassociated relatil'es who are not in the.
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It's OK Lurkers, Paranoid former JW's, and even you current JW's....
by AllTimeJeff init's ok.... to post here on the internet, on jwn, and other jw related forums.. first of all, as we all know, the governing body doesn't provide a forum for jw's to "associate" with their brothers and sisters.
i'm just guessing, and i could be wrong, that its harder to control the flock when they have free access to information and each other.
damn electricity and the technology it brings..... anyway, i realize that for anyone leaving, or for practicing jw's, to post is a nervous thing.
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AllTimeJeff
It's ok.... to post here on the internet, on JWN, and other JW related forums.
First of all, as we all know, the Governing Body doesn't provide a forum for JW's to "associate" with their brothers and sisters. I'm just guessing, and I could be wrong, that its harder to control the flock when they have free access to information and each other. Damn electricity and the technology it brings....
Anyway, I realize that for anyone leaving, or for practicing JW's, to post is a nervous thing. Because it is so frowned upon. The flock is "encouraged" to not be on the internet at all, associating with people they don't know. Even though the orders come from a Governing Body that they don't know either. Oh, the irony.
I remember when I first left, wondering thanks to the indoctrination I had received if somehow I was being monitored. I wasn't. As long as I wasn't posting copyrighted information, it is my opinion that they were happy I wasn't sharing what I knew about them within a congregation, where I might do the most damage to their indoctrination efforts. Considering the fact that I made the decision to leave and not share what I knew with others, the GB was happy to let me go. My exit, and others like me, were and continue to be an accepted cost of doing business. As is the accepted fact that former JW's will continue to talk about their experiences upon their exits. Yes, accepted. They are aware of it, know they can do nothing about it, and don't really sweat it.
Their's is a strategic plan to fight this battle of mis-information and propaganda in the field where they feel it does the most good: At KH meetings and WT publications that serve to demonize the internet and scare their flocks from even listenting to anyone with a negative word about their little cult.
So don't worry. Post away. Just don't put copyrighted stuff of their's on the internet, and you will be fine. After all, we may be invited to take life's water free, but it costs a helluva lot in lawyers fees to re-post WT literature on the internet.
However, it is free to share what we know, and it's ok to do so. They won't chase you. In fact, YOU will have made progress to the extent that you no longer let the fear that the GB has instilled in you stopping you from moving forward and moving on.
So whether it's posting, or just reading here on JWN, or www.freeminds.org , don't let fear or propaganda stop you from learning about JW's. Just like JW's want to get others to learn about the real origins of their faith, many like me would like you to learn about the real origins of yours. It's only fair that you do.
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DMCA Complaint from The WatchTower for links to KS-10 'Shepherding' book
by Simon inyes, that's right, they really do not like people being able to read that book so they wanted links to it removed (it appears they have also been going after the hosts of the content itself as well).. unfortunately, i had to removed the links (which were dead anyway when i checked) and i'd ask that people don't re-post them (sorry).
i'm sure there are lots of alternative ways for those with the information to get it to those who need it.. here are the discussions on the book:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200524/1/ks10-chapter-one-discussion.
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AllTimeJeff
djeggnog, if I might be allowed to weigh in, I think you have made your point. You of all people (I hope) can understand the emotion that comes from former JW's.
Now that you have made your point, and the moderators agree with your statements, I fail to see the utility in morphing this thread into, what appears to be an attempt at defending your personal belief system.
I mean, I bet you have personal beliefs, and for that, congrats! Carry on.
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DMCA Complaint from The WatchTower for links to KS-10 'Shepherding' book
by Simon inyes, that's right, they really do not like people being able to read that book so they wanted links to it removed (it appears they have also been going after the hosts of the content itself as well).. unfortunately, i had to removed the links (which were dead anyway when i checked) and i'd ask that people don't re-post them (sorry).
i'm sure there are lots of alternative ways for those with the information to get it to those who need it.. here are the discussions on the book:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200524/1/ks10-chapter-one-discussion.
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AllTimeJeff
VM44
The reason for the shredding party has nothing to do with anything super salicious in the material. It has everything to do with the paranoia of the leadership. It's about control. It's about obedience.
All of it demonstrates why JW's are a cult.
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Why a Movement to Stop Jehovah's Witnesses Doesn't Make Sense
by AllTimeJeff infrequently, i see angry departing jw's want to stop someone from going through the experience they have had.
people dying because of their horrible and contradictory blood doctrines, the protection of child molesters in their midst, who wouldn't want to destroy all of that.. the reality though is pretty simple.
as an organization, jw's are far from the only ones who systematically practice the use and abuse of people for their own groups benefits.. can you get rid of one?
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AllTimeJeff
Frequently, I see angry departing JW's want to stop someone from going through the experience they have had. People dying because of their horrible and contradictory blood doctrines, the protection of child molesters in their midst, who wouldn't want to destroy all of that.
The reality though is pretty simple. As an organization, JW's are far from the only ones who systematically practice the use and abuse of people for their own groups benefits.
Can you get rid of one? Can you get rid of all? No.
At some point, the real "movement" is when an individual wakes up and realizes that they are indeed, an individual. The only movement is for people to think for themselves and discover themselves, and then do what they must.
At what point does it start and stop? Do we go after political parties? Your company that you work for? The risks of joining any group, organization, or movement, cult or not, is the risk of losing yourself to the identity of the group.
Sadly, there are many weak minded people who let that happen. Most actually like it. They are the ones who stay.
The decline of JW's was/is inevitable. For what this is worth, other then the influence of a small few (Ray Franz especially), the leadership does it to themselves. In the end truth, real truth, wins out. The GB has lied, and continues to lie. They can't cover their tracks now. In their infinite wisdom, (sarcasm there) they put out tens of thousands of CD-Roms with their own lies. Anyone can get that information.
They do it to themselves, because this group was founded on lies, grew on lies, and must now suck their own carbon dioxide with their last staggering breaths.
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Annointed Elder Publicly Reproved
by drewcoul ini recently found out that the former po from my old congregation who was annointed for many years was reproved.
his wife who was and is a faithful witness divorced him.
a person close to me phoned her to see how she is doing.
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AllTimeJeff
Technically, it shouldn't affect his standing. Of course, "new light" could happen, and then, all bets are off.
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DMCA Complaint from The WatchTower for links to KS-10 'Shepherding' book
by Simon inyes, that's right, they really do not like people being able to read that book so they wanted links to it removed (it appears they have also been going after the hosts of the content itself as well).. unfortunately, i had to removed the links (which were dead anyway when i checked) and i'd ask that people don't re-post them (sorry).
i'm sure there are lots of alternative ways for those with the information to get it to those who need it.. here are the discussions on the book:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200524/1/ks10-chapter-one-discussion.
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AllTimeJeff
Do the Gilead grads have a special manual or handbook like the Elder's have? Or is just the regular publications?
No manual is given at Gilead. You get a syllabus of sorts and a huge 3 ring binder filled with 5 months of courses and study materials to help you prepare. Interestingly, there is a shredding party toward the end of each Gilead class, because they don't want that getting out. If I had my head right, I would have scanned every damn page. Not that there was anything esp sexy or exciting about the Gilead cirriculum, its just that it shows how weird and out of touch, how little they really care, that is revealed.
There is a manual that is given out for missionary's. I have a scanned copy of that, but, I won't post it due to copyright laws. I have occasionally quoted from it here, but again, its just a little booklet full of nonsense. Nothing damning in it other then the sheer idiodicy of it. Normal people would look at a person who took the contents of that booklet as crazy people. And they would be right.....
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DMCA Complaint from The WatchTower for links to KS-10 'Shepherding' book
by Simon inyes, that's right, they really do not like people being able to read that book so they wanted links to it removed (it appears they have also been going after the hosts of the content itself as well).. unfortunately, i had to removed the links (which were dead anyway when i checked) and i'd ask that people don't re-post them (sorry).
i'm sure there are lots of alternative ways for those with the information to get it to those who need it.. here are the discussions on the book:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200524/1/ks10-chapter-one-discussion.
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AllTimeJeff
Jehovah's Witnesses/Governing Body... Well, I mean the GB, hides behind the legal framework of the United States in particular, and the laws of other nations which they inhabit, to exist and practice their fruity, and sometimes dangerous little cult.
Legally the GB controls how their content is distributed and who can do it. An exception would be if you received a reply from them (such as the letters of Carl Johnson or Ray Franz during the 1970's.) Those would be in your posession. My Gilead diploma is my possession, as it the few letters I have from them.
The GB is run by the legal dept. Not a big secret. As such, they usually are dead on in going after those that illegally distribute their material over the internet.
Is this hypocritical and fly in the face of their own claims against other religions? Of course. And folks, don't sweat it. JW's are experiencing significant diminishing returns for their troubles and efforts.
It isn't necesarry to publish their elders manual online to prevent people from going to them. These days, only people who are pre-disposed to join a cult, who are in a bad spot in their life, or born in's, are the ones who are going to inhabit a Kingdom Hall weekly.
It's sort of like watching Christine O'Donnel say "I am you." When you know she is bat sh*t crazy. The GB does it to themselves. Only a select few people who you really can't talk sense to anyway are going to join in the future. These are damaged people looking to join other damaged people in a cult. Thats how it works.
So don't get upset about copyright laws. Big deal. The more they talk, the more they do, the more they hurt themselves. They have been their own biggest enemy, and that will continue. You and I have a pretty good seat, being we used to be JW's, to watch and understand what is going on. Enjoy the show, and get some popcorn.
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My perception of posters
by Lady Lee inearlier today i made a comment on a thread about how i perceive a poster.. my perception is mine and mine alone.
i am responsible for it.
how i perceive what someone posts to me is also my responsibility.. if i have a run-in with someone on the board there is a good chance the next time i see that person post something i don't like i will add my past perception to their post.. for example: let's say poster xyzzz told me off.
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AllTimeJeff
An interesting angle.... Thanks Lee.
For what this is worth, when I first left JW's, I debated. A lot. I think it was Little Toe if memory serves, a Christian, who got into it with me when I was at my most anti Christian.
I have changed. But I often think of that little debate, and the many I delved into on political matters here on JWN, and how ultimately, they were for me. Did I win? Was I trying to win? Actually, I just wanted to make a point. And I needed to express myself, even if it was immature at times.....
But in those debates, I got to see in writing people with different points of view, who disagreed with me, and it caused me to think differently through the years. And I would like to think that others have a different perspective thanks to my limited points of view.
I think if one takes as their motive the ability to understand others, then a debate, even if you are comative (but respectful) can be healthy.
If you just want to be a d*ck, that's another matter. But I think if you read individual threads, you can get sort of get people's drift. I actually assume most people who are comative are in some pain.
In any case, this is my meandering way of saying that while we probably resemble some of what we are, I feel safe in assuming that most of us aren't like how we post on this, or other boards.
Anonymous posting can make one braver then they would be in real life. So I don't take most too seriously, beyond what their stated beliefs are.
My perception of posters doesn't matter, because while I accept and acknowledge that this and other boards that one chooses to involve themselves in are a part of life, they in no way resemble real life, and as such, to read too much into anyone's posts beyond the opinions expressed is self defeating.
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What is "Brazen" conduct according to new 'Shepherd the Flock of God' book
by TastingFreedom inwhat is brazen conduct according to the watchtower?.
here are some references from the new flock book:.
they have really pushed the envelope to bundle a bunch of things into one really evil word.
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AllTimeJeff
The GB controls their own little universe. They don't have to call it "loose conduct" or "brazen conduct". They can call it whatever they want. But here is why they changed the term.
The "anonymous" NWT committee (made up of Fred Franz, George Gangas, and a staff of go-fers) originally translated the term "loose conduct" in the 1940's. They did this by their own rule of assigning one english word to one greek work whenever possible.
Fast forward to the 1990's. Sex issues have always been prosecuted severely, esp loose conduct. But its "loose". It can be tightened. It is redeemable. When bodies of elders were started in the 1970's, few were loving. Many were strict and dictatorial. It was necesarry to get elders to lighten up. Any one who has ever been an elder and have read the letters the Service Dept sent to BOE's can see that tone.
In the 1980's, pedophiles started to really pop. The 90's with the internet brought easy to access to porn. What do you call it? Loose conduct. Conduct that can be tightened. Conduct that can be forgiven. Conduct that can even be ignored. Because its loose.
But if its brazen?!! Thats different.
The GB wants to tighten control. They figured out that psychologically, elders who deal with the flock who are involved in pedophilia, or porn, or hanging out with DF'd relatives will be less likely to be strict if it is loose.
But if its brazen, thats different. Thats evil. Elders will disfellowship more if they are trained to view the sins as evil.
What changed? Nothing. They just took a word that sounded more criminal, and are in the middle of attaching all those old loose conduct "sins" to a new word, that changes these acts from acts of weakness to acts of evil.
Brazen = evil. Loose = weakness.
We are witnessing one of the grand GB traditions, their genius with semantics. They control the words, they control the definitions, and thus, they control people.