Posts by AllTimeJeff

70

My Facebook Page, "God is not divided" is not responded to.

by shechaiyah in

i thought the topic of religion would be a great one for facebook.. wow, was i wrong about that.. http://www.facebook.com/pages/god-is-not-divided/112694992130588.

the only people are show any interest at all are catholics.. witnesses seem to avoid every venue where somebody else might show up.. zionists do likewise; but they have a different reason.. but, god yhvh is god of the whole earth, is my point.. anybody got any idea what i can do to stimulate godly conversation on my page?.

i'm tryin' to minister to the merely-confused as witnesses do out in service.. .

AllTimeJeff

I would like to add to the number of Jeff's who think Shec is off her rocker to two.

127

Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

by XJW4EVR in

when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

AllTimeJeff

Hi XJW4EVR.

I have no idea what your motives are, and I am pretty sure I didn't call your motives into question. It was your question and the tack of your argument that I discussed.

In any case, I really do believe your faith is a personal thing, and while it's always stimulating to discuss, even as we disagree, I respect your right to believe that Jesus was resurrected.

17

What Changed? I Did. You Did. (or, there is a reason Apostates are angry)

by AllTimeJeff in

(for the purposes of this post, i want to say that being angry, though a real emotion, is not healthy if it continues to fester inside you.

i think anger is reasonable if it helps you to move on from point a to point b. in addition, because of the real issues anger can bring, if you feel that after many years you are still angry over your jw experience, i strongly encourage therapy.

long term anger is destructive to the individual).

AllTimeJeff

(for the purposes of this post, I want to say that being angry, though a real emotion, is not healthy if it continues to fester inside you. I think anger is reasonable if it helps you to move on from point A to point B. In addition, because of the real issues anger can bring, if you feel that after many years you are still angry over your JW experience, I strongly encourage therapy. Long term anger is destructive to the individual)

The secular definition of epiphany is " a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something,
usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience."

In 1999, I visited an apostate website for the first time. Sometime after 2001, I stumbled upon this forum. In both cases, I was racked with anxiety. In both instances, I wasn't looking for something in particular. I was more interested in how "apostates" interacted, what they had to say. In both cases, I saw as I was trained to see, "apostates" were angry, mocking.....

Little did I know they had good reason to be, as I experienced personally.

Flash forward to 2006. I had already admitted to myself the previous year that Jehovah's Witnesses were not only NOT "the truth", they were "a LIE." So I came here and other sites to basically hang out, and I found out I had a lot to say.... (I digress on that point.)

What I have learned through all of this, and continue to observe, is that the substantive facts on any matter never changes.

You and I are as we are right now, but we can change.

What happened? Did reading what "apostates" have to say turn me into the Nazi in Indiana Jones who saw the Ark? No. I admit, in 1999, my head spun around twice and I engaged in projectile vomiting. But other then that, I was fine. ;) (kidding of course)

In all honesty, I changed.

JW's are conditioned to look for certain behaviors from the GB when it comes to apostates. So when they see the anger, they assume all the other things that are said about apostates are correct.

The GB counts on apostate anger to scare away curious JW's. "How can you listen to bitter angry apostates? Look at them. They aren't happy..."

So I got scared, because apostates are angy, but with damn good reason.

How can you not be angry when you have been lied to and mistreated?

Whatever the reason for our epihpanies, the fact remains that it is an awakening, and it almost always engenders anger. The GB cynically count on this and use it as a buffer in warning their sheeples about former JW's.

Ultimately, it is when a JW is ready that they will consider the evidence. Our awesome posts, emotional pleas, and clever wittiness only serve as a place to land when a JW is ready to leap.

What is more interesting though is reality.

JW's always taught a lie. That never changed. I just needed to confront the evidence and make a decision based on that evidence.

What changed was me. It is true then, and it is true now?

How will I view what I currently think and believe in 5 years? I am sure I will change. It always happens, whether we want to admit it or not.

I think it healthy to admit that the older we get, depending on how honest we are with our experiences and the things we learn, we will change.

But the underlying facts, and the nature of the world around us hasn't changed. Some of us need to wake up, or are waking up.

Let's be open to that. It has definitely helped us all out so far. Be open minded and honest, and your life will be the richer for it.

127

Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

by XJW4EVR in

when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

AllTimeJeff

PSAC, for what you just said, I very much respect you.

I apologize if in making my points, I insulted you. Your honesty is refreshing, even if we disagree.

19

How do you solve a problem like....um...JESUS' IDENTITY?

by Terry in

in the musical the sound of music, a convent of nuns sings a song about how indefinable a character maria is and the problems she causes their order.. first they describe the things she does which leads to the problems she causes:.

i met a man who wasnt there.

a little man who wasnt there.

AllTimeJeff

Terry, to your point, the very fact that there are indeed so many ideas about Jesus within Christendom is something barely acknowledged as worth looking into, even though many who espouse differing views as to the nature of Jesus will tell you it's a life or death matter.

It's hardly appealing, and confusing.

...and when I say confusing, I am not saying that because the answer isn't right there in front of you. Far from it! What is confusing is that "Christians" will believe entirely different concepts, defend them, and never answer a legit question about it.

I have much more respect for a Christian whose faith is private, who may (or may not) come on discussion boards like this and say "I'm a believer. I understand why others don't and I respect that. My faith and my god is good enough for me".

Other's are not so charitable, or honest, about their beliefs in Jesus.

If I hit a nerve.... if the shoe fits, wear it.

19

How do you solve a problem like....um...JESUS' IDENTITY?

by Terry in

in the musical the sound of music, a convent of nuns sings a song about how indefinable a character maria is and the problems she causes their order.. first they describe the things she does which leads to the problems she causes:.

i met a man who wasnt there.

a little man who wasnt there.

AllTimeJeff

That's why Trinitarians "loved" to debate with Jehovah's Witnesses. Classic competing ideologies of monotheism vs the Trinity.

Lost in all of this is that the concept isn't as important as the people.

So I won't live forever because I don't believe in Jehovah as the one true god?

So I won't live forever because I don't accept Jesus as part of a Triune god?

Same thing, just different sides of a coin.

127

Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

by XJW4EVR in

when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

AllTimeJeff

PSAC, Jesus wasn't resuurected.

Prove me wrong... :-p

I don't mean anything against you on that btw. I know we won't agree on that.

19

How do you solve a problem like....um...JESUS' IDENTITY?

by Terry in

in the musical the sound of music, a convent of nuns sings a song about how indefinable a character maria is and the problems she causes their order.. first they describe the things she does which leads to the problems she causes:.

i met a man who wasnt there.

a little man who wasnt there.

AllTimeJeff

Terry, I hope I may be permitted to make an observation about all arguments involving Jesus. (WARNING: Generalizations for the sake of discussion may be included)

Jesus is beloved and worshipped as god, without regard to fair questions as to his existence then and now. I accept that and have no expectations that this will ever change.

I prefer a Christian who loves Jesus teachings (as they understand them) and thus, loves others as Jesus (supposedly) taught.

There is another set of Christians to whom their entire time is spent defending the concept and identity of who Christ was, and now (supposedly) is. It is more important to such ones that the concept of who he supposedly is now (as you have brought up, the Trinity) be defended then his actual basic teachings.

What a waste of time!

If your concept of the identity of Christ takes all your time to explain, what time do you have to actually be a Christian?

And isn't it telling that if your concept as to the identity of Jesus is so convoluted that it leaves little time to discuss Jesus actual teachings, how true can it be?

As Terry pointed out, the Gospels are super bendy when it comes to who Jesus actually could have been. So many people viewed him in so many ways.

Little wonder that confusion exists today, when the Gospels are the main providers of the conflicting information.'

19

How do you solve a problem like....um...JESUS' IDENTITY?

by Terry in

in the musical the sound of music, a convent of nuns sings a song about how indefinable a character maria is and the problems she causes their order.. first they describe the things she does which leads to the problems she causes:.

i met a man who wasnt there.

a little man who wasnt there.

AllTimeJeff

I might have to join in on this one....

95

Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff in

this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

awesome!

AllTimeJeff

As an aside, I think it interesting that strong Trinitarians and the leadership of JW's have one thing in common when arguing for their particular theology; they will not honestly join in any conversation in which they do not control the questions.

Sulla, JW's as you may or may not know won't discuss certain aspects of their theology until a person is sufficiently indoctrinated and accepting of other basic teachings first.

It has been my experience that some (not all) Trinitarians are similar.

You state that there are better intellectual arguments. I am sure there are.

You put it on me to find them? No, that isn't a fair premise. You are the believer. Defend your faith!

I am a non believer, willing to believe what the evidence shows. If as a sincere non believer, I call you out, it is your choice to either be condescending, or you can actually engage in a conversation. Whatever. My life goes on. Your arrogance will too.

But as my first statement in this thread suggests, these debates go no where.

Regardless of how superior your view of the Trinity may be, it is still just words. Just a concept.

There still is no Triune god around, outside of the concept you have of the Trinity in your head.

Cheers!