AllTimeJeff

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Posts by AllTimeJeff

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  95

  Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

  because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

  awesome!

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  AllTimeJeff

  Shamus, dude, you and Sulla have something in common... ;)
• 
  95

  Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

  because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

  awesome!

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  AllTimeJeff

  The problem isn't with the Trinity.

  The problem is if you insist that the Trinity is THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD.

  That's all.

  I have beliefs (purposely not disclosed) that are good enough for me. I don't think them weird, just my own personal views on spirituality, not unlike how the Trinity can ground a believer for his life and worldview. Fair enough.

  So Sulla, believe all you want. But please don't think that with me, you will get away with maintaining that it is THE way to view god, or that criticism of it comes ONLY from the (easy) bludgeoning of "weak" arguments.

  What are the strong ones?

  I keep saying that because, while you keep trying to change the conversation to a superior "if you only knew" argument, you still haven't shared what you know.

  The only certainty you have expressed is that I don't know what I am talking about. I suppose if that is good enough for you....... But trust me, I feel the same you about you. You don't know what you are talking about either.

  Anyway, I hope all Trinitarians hold a nice, hand holding, Trinitarian party tonight and feel good as a result!
• 
  95

  Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

  because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

  awesome!

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  AllTimeJeff

  Sulla, the journey continues.

  You are a very difficult fellow to agree with, Jeff. Like I said, I'm in substantial agreement with your observation that the Trinity is not usefully discussed on boards like this. I happen to think that is mostly because people on your side don't bother to educate themselves about what it is they disagree with. And because they have a fudamentally dishonest approach to things where they prefer to engage the weakest arguments of their opponents instead of the strongest arguments.

  So, if people only educated themselves on the Trinity like you did, they would believe? Ok. Duly noted. Still haven't heard any arguments from you, as you put out this odd "strong/weak" dichotemy. You just say that "we" Trinity debunkers take pot shots at the weak arguments. Yet you haven't put out a strong or weak argument. However, if you have, let me/us know. Thanks in advance! As for your dishonest approach, you haven't given anyone here an alternative. So frankly, you are the dishonest one.

  Look, I see that you now say you've studied the matter extensively and still conclude it is illogical. I don't believe you. I think, if you had, you would not toss out things like 1+1+1~=1 or the amazing observation that, in humans, natures and persons are not separable. You'd be entitled to think the same of me if I tried to defend the teaching with some H2O example, or egg example, or clover. I didn't, of course, and wouldn't because I know that those are not compelling arguments. Anybody who would be convinced by those arguments for the Trinity is probably not engaging the question at a very high level.

  So what is your high level argument again?

  But, back to you. I think this thread has generally supported my viewpoint that anti-Trinitarians like you prefer cheap shots to real discussion. And I think this thread has shown a high level of bad faith from your side: you keep changing the subject: for example, asking me to offer up a strong argument for the Trinity (how many times do I have to agree with you that there isn't much point in that sort of discussion?). And I think this thread has shown how you mis-understand things like the observation that the Trinity is a mystery, preferring to suppose that means those who believe it accept illogical arguments.

  I don't really give a rats ass what you think this says about me. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT WEAK ARGUMENTS YET HAVEN'T PRESENTED A "STRONG" ONE. What I think this says about you is that you would rather frame the argument instead of joining in it.

  I, on the other hand, have shown no particular inclination to adopt illogical reasoning at all. I am the paragon of rationality.

  You on the other hand have shown no inclination to discuss your beliefs. You are the paragon of bullshit.

  So, where do you think the problem lies?

  That you will not present any argument at all and insist that all any anti-Trinitarians do is take pot shots at the "weak" arguments.

  So you Sulla, our local Trinitarian hot shot, where is your "strong" argument again?

  Thought so......
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  95

  Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

  because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

  awesome!

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  AllTimeJeff

  Unless Sulla wants to continue the conversation, I would like to say that while I honestly don't, never have, and likely never will believe in the Christian Trinity, I don't have a problem with people believing it.

  In Sulla's case, I just pointed out that all Sulla has said and implied in no way defended the Trinity.

  This thread was a comment by me, and I knew it would upset some, but that can't be helped.

  For the record, I have studied the Trinity extensively, to the point where I realize that 1) The Trinity is in no way how JW's describe it, and 2) It still is illogical, thus making it eligible as an article of faith.

  That's all.
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  95

  Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

  because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

  awesome!

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  AllTimeJeff

  Do you take a check Shamus? What are you going to do with the money, buy the Maple Leafs some players so you can lose in the first round of the playoffs next year? ;)
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  95

  Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

  because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

  awesome!

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  AllTimeJeff

  Oh good, two for the price of one!

  What, precisely, makes you think god must "rely" on me?

  Because god isn't defending himself, you are defending a personal belief.

  And what is all this 'God is limited to good arguments' nonsense?

  Uh, your previous statements about me putting down "weak" arguments, thus implying that there are stronger "good" arguments.

  You're not even coherent.

  Hey, I am not the one insisting that there are good 'non weak' arguments that support a god who is Triune and invisible. Surely this makes you more coherenent.

  But what comes through very clearly is naked hostility:

  It's actually a lack of tolerance for bullshit packaged in a superior condescending manner.

  I point out the lacunae in your understanding, you get snarky.

  I point out that your god isn't here, you get snarky.

  Next!
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  95

  Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.

  because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.

  awesome!

  1. 
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• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Hi Sulla.

  Sorry, Jeff, this thread is about whether it makes sense to argue the Trinity.

  Well, yeah, I know. I started it.

  I think you are mostly correct to say that there is no point to it, though for different reasons. You think it's pointless because those who accept the Trinity are, basically, stupid. I think it is because those who reject the Trinity are ignorant and proud.

  Well, I think some Trinitarians are tools, but that probably wouldn't suprise you. I do have to say, not all Trinitarians are tools, but I am not sure I can exclude you from that list at the moment. I would ask you what qualifies someone as a non ignorant and humble non rejecter of the Trinity, but at this point, we might be using to many words, and it could possibly turn into a contest between you and I of who is better at putting the other viewpoint down in a condescending and superior manner. I'd hate for this to degenerate into such a word battle.

  You are pretty much the one who called believers stupid, Jeff. And you are the one who seems not to be familiar with the arguments in support of the Trinity -- I mean the good arguments -- and who seems not to care. One of us is arrogant, that's for sure.

  From one online bullshitter to another, i would like to compliment you on your skillfull dodge. (although I never called believers stupid. I think you might be both sensitive and stupid, but I don't want to lump all believers with you) As you may or may not recall, I asked you before, and I ask again for a "good" Trinitarian argument. But hey, you don't have to make it. All you have to do is imply that I haven't done enough research, and if I did, I would surely see things your way.

  You could be man enough (or woman enough? On this I sincerely do not know the gender of my word sparring partner) to actually post your own "good" argument as a seperate thread.

  Or you could just come on my thread and make implications in the hopes I take the bait.

  Instead, I would like to call you out for not putting out your stupendeous, fabulous, awesome, superior Trinitarian argument. It's up to you, but don't take a swing at me for not knowing until you put your money where your obviously large mouth is.

  To all believers: I want you to know that I respect your right to believe as you want, even in a Trinity, and I don't think that you are as stupid as Sulla.

  I hope that makes everyone feel better.
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  17

  What Changed? I Did. You Did. (or, there is a reason Apostates are angry)

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (for the purposes of this post, i want to say that being angry, though a real emotion, is not healthy if it continues to fester inside you.

  i think anger is reasonable if it helps you to move on from point a to point b. in addition, because of the real issues anger can bring, if you feel that after many years you are still angry over your jw experience, i strongly encourage therapy.

  long term anger is destructive to the individual).

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  AllTimeJeff

  Sometimes, anger leads to the epiphany. Othertimes, the epiphany leads to anger.

  In my case, my epiphany lead to anger.

  Two JW's can read CoC. One will allow it to affect him, the other will choose to ignore it and stay a JW.

  At the end of the day, it was always up to us. I don't think anger is the best way to expose JW's, but it certainly is the most authentic emotion to feel when you leave.
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  70

  My Facebook Page, "God is not divided" is not responded to.

  by shechaiyah in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i thought the topic of religion would be a great one for facebook.. wow, was i wrong about that.. http://www.facebook.com/pages/god-is-not-divided/112694992130588.

  the only people are show any interest at all are catholics.. witnesses seem to avoid every venue where somebody else might show up.. zionists do likewise; but they have a different reason.. but, god yhvh is god of the whole earth, is my point.. anybody got any idea what i can do to stimulate godly conversation on my page?.

  i'm tryin' to minister to the merely-confused as witnesses do out in service.. .

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  AllTimeJeff

  I would like to add to the number of Jeff's who think Shec is off her rocker to two.
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  127

  Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

  by XJW4EVR in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

  the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

  that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

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  AllTimeJeff

  Hi XJW4EVR.

  I have no idea what your motives are, and I am pretty sure I didn't call your motives into question. It was your question and the tack of your argument that I discussed.

  In any case, I really do believe your faith is a personal thing, and while it's always stimulating to discuss, even as we disagree, I respect your right to believe that Jesus was resurrected.