Posts by AllTimeJeff

12

When we quote from the bible to prove a point do we have any right?

by Qcmbr in

one thing you'll see me and many others do is the good old bible bash with scriptures flying around.

i cannot move away from the idea however, that when we cannot agree on the interpretation of scripture how can we possibly claim our understanding is superior to anothers?

yet upon such topics hangs the supposed destination of one's soul.

AllTimeJeff

While I respect believers of the bible or other ancient holy books, what you just brought up is why "truth" is so elusive and why any group claiming a monopoly on it must be viewed with caution....

Whatever our beliefs on various spiritual matters, we have to admit first of all of where they originate. If they come from the bible, then we start by saying that these anceint scrolls in ancient tounges are not what they were when first written, and there is no way to verify the truthfullness of their claims... You can believe the claims, no problem, that is everyone's right. But all we have left are these old, translated scrolls. What bearing should that have on belief? I think it should at least be acknowledged by believers, because it affects me.... How do you overcome that arguement?

There is one other thing, people love to argue, and they love their opinions... Intellectual honesty is something that is missing in many debates, and often debates involving the bible cannot be intellectually honest because it is so open to a wide variety of interpretations....

Edited for bad formatting... Sorry...

15

Can JW's value life when they OPPOSE abortion but BAN blood transfusions?

by truthseeker in

someone needs to get the word out that the only reason blood was banned was to incite persecution against jehovah's witnesses.

after the end of world war ii did not bring armageddon.

the book four presidents of the watchtower society says that individuals were considering banning blood transfusions but that rutherford was against it.. jehovah's witnesses say that abortion is wrong, that even if life is just a few cells, it's worth protecting and would be murder if someone aborted it yet.

AllTimeJeff

Does tacit approval on the part of the Governing Body constitute blood-guilt?

Yes it does. Get in line, organizations that are controversial do all sorts of things tactily that cause great harm. JW's just happen to be very visible....

I may be missing something here on this thread, but I would like to suggest that first of all, what the Canadian courts did was as balanced a judgement as could be rendered. I do happen to agree that to the extent possible, the wishes of the parents and/or patients should be respected whenever possible, even if it is the refusal of treatment that many would consider essential. This has nothing to do in my mind with JW's, but the larger issue of the right all patients have to accept or refuse treatment...

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT JW'S TAKE HUGE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FREEDOM OF CHOICE IN MEDICINE. The R n F make no conscience decisions regarding transfusions, that decision is already made up for them. Regrettably though, their reasons are (in their mind) bible based. I know that there are many cynical and skeptical ex JW who would suggest conspiracy, but there isn't any real evidence of this. I fail to see from a logical and practical point of view if the aim was more publicity what such extra exposure would accomplish FOR JW's.... I mean, it is all negative publicity isn't it?

Still, it is only a matter of time before JW's are done anyway, and as medicine advances, maybe it won't be such an issue. The point of medicine IS the healing of the sick and ill, and JW's generally do want to feel better. They have a BACKWARDS view of blood, based on a misinterpretation of scriptures, but so be it. This issue has not gone away in 50 years, and it will be around as long as JW's are....

25

What do elders talk about behind closed doors?

by JH in

just about every time i went to the kingdom hall, i used to see a few elders gather in the 2nd school and close the door and stay there maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

oh, what they were doing seemed so important... .

what the heck do they talk about behind these closed doors?.

AllTimeJeff

Me experience and observation is that it depends on the elders. There are elders who looooove elders meetings, and just as many who want to put those very same elders in a meat grinder and turn them into alpo.....

Typically, it is an update on a judicial committee meeting. If the PO gets some letter from the branch or the CO, they might call an elders meeting to read the letter. (The Secretary is suppose to pass it around, but a lot of PO's want to make sure all the elders read the letter.... weridness...)

In some congregations, there is the occasional, chiwawa like elder who will call meetings for whatever may pop into his head. He is typically hated... lol

20

Is it brainwashing?

by jgnat in

i've had a bit of a semantic tousle with a member of this board on whether the coercive techniques used by the wtbts to obtain and retain members is "brainwashing".

i say "brainwashing" is not a good description of what goes on, i prefer "mind control", or coercive and deceptive techniques.

he argued to call it something less than "brainwashing" is to water down the destructive effects of the wts on it's members and former members.

AllTimeJeff

Excellent post! This is something I too agree with you on. For all practical purposes, one might say that brain washing and mind control are two methods used to achieve similar results.

Imo, mind control is far more effective because it creates the illusion that you made the choice and have control. Beliefs and activities are revealed gradually to the new member because it would be too much for them otherwise, that is to say, they would see that the group is crap and stay away. By showing the "sugar" first, it is an excellent way to get the recruit from looking at the oddities. Suffice to say, many recruits are themsevles going through troubled times, and if the perceive love, don't often question much more then that. They have a feeling of acceptance and belonging that they were formerly lacking. Suffice to say, this lays the groundwork for the dependency and dread stages you described....

20

JW's "Genius" Brainwashing Technique - DID YOU FEEL THIS WAY?

by Good Girl or Bad Girl? in

i'm sure i'm not having some great big ephinany that no one else thought of, but to me this is sorta big to realize:.

so many people in both congregations i attended as a witness were soooooo depressed, severely, traumatizingly depressed, i would say.

they would all comfort each other and say that satan was attacking them personally and their depression was proof of it, and that this was the "best place this side of paradise" they could be.

AllTimeJeff

I couldn't agree more with your thoughts Good Girl. "The world and Satan are attacking us." (unless you made a bad decision, then its your fault and responsibility.) I looooved it when a CO said that it's your job, school, etc that is making you tired, not the meetings. Well, thats right. Life, REAL LIFE, DOES make you tired. WHICH IS WHY YOU NEED REST!!!!! I am sorry to discover the fact that sitting on your @$$ after a long day of work is most helpful for you to get up somewhat refreshed to do it again the next day.

This also reminds me of the circular reasoning regarding prayer. Remember, PRAY! Then look for the answer to your prayers. Don't assume though that Jehovah will answer the prayer in the way you asked. Maybe he won't answer it at all in your case. He may have his reasons. But even if your prayer isn't answered, (even if brother and sister @$$hole DID get their prayers answered) remember that prayer WORKS! (esp if it is to Jehovah, the hearer of prayer, though not always the returner of the communique)

As always with the borg, the problem with much of the GB's teachings is that when they set one teaching in motion, there are 10 different questions that can't be answered. So life is then reduced to simple platitudes (as you brought out Good Girl, life sucks outside the borg, so why leave, its not JW that are problem.) The more we learn about the circular reasoning used, the more it helps those who have left.

37

Gilead

by AllTimeJeff in

i will use my other thread today to talk about gilead.. one must apply for several years to show they are serious, unless you know a gb member or another heavy in the service dept.

a couple first gets a long app in the mail usually after several years of applying at the dc.

it is over 115 questions.

AllTimeJeff

LOL! Yeah, a typo, it is obviously 28. (sorry for the fuzzy math, its a JW tradition!)

GB Gossip. I don't want to be to personal yet, but I was there at morning worship the day Geoffrey Jackson (age 50 at the time) and the other guy (never met him, but in his early 50's too). It is my firm belief that I too should have pretended to be annointed, I would have been a shoe in to be on the GB in a few decades....

There are some I didn't like. Jaracz never lectured the class, and I heard he hasn't lectured a Gilead class for at least 2 years. Jackson was around the most, and he IS fun. A nice guy. Of course, I have a rule about any elder: It's the ones that smile all the time and act like they love everyone that you have to worry about the most. I liked the grumpy ones better. On that end, I liked Herd, because he would say whatever the hell he felt like.

From what I could gather, Losch and Pierce were about as popular as the ebola virus. Losch still wants to scripturally ban football for its violence. Splane is considered the best teacher, Lett is good too, but he is SOOO rubber faced (you'd have to see him talk to understand) that he isn't taken as seriously. Jaracz is the last link to Knorr, but I never even saw him. I hear Jaracz's wife was the basis for the green woman in Wizard of Oz... lol..... She likes to go around to newbies and say "Do you know who my husband is?"

18

Why Matthew 24 can NEVER be fulfilled.....

by kid-A in

lets see.

by watchtower theology, millions if not billions of dead people will be resurrected in jehoobie's funland...... assuming 6 million dubs survive the fiery wrath of lord jehoobie, they will represent a tiny minority in the new world order!.

according to the borg, all of these newly risen dead will require a "witness", meaning, the kingdom ministry will by necessity be in full swing,.

AllTimeJeff

Not that this has anything to do with this, but Ray Franz supervised the original Aid book in the 60's which the GB is still paying for today. It was revised in 87 as the Insight volumes, but it is essentially unchanged from what Franz did. You can read about it in the COC. It got everything started on the GB finding out that 607 BCE isn't the date of Jerusalems destruction.

Btw, I love your math, it isn't a subject the GB excels at... lol....

58

BIG ELDERS MEETING ON THE BLOOD ISSUE! SHOCKING CHANGES AFOOT!?

by Gill in

jw
friends

i have just been informed that something is going in with the blood issue within the borg.. a large meeting is being held this weekend with local elders and also many elders from all over the country/the united kingdom and members from the bethel and hospital liason committee to discuss the blood issue.. is anyone else aware of what this is going to be about?.

i wondered whether this would be part of the expected or possible changes that the organization is expected to announce this year that might lose them many members.

any elders here know anything?.

AllTimeJeff

What if this has to do with the recent law in Britain regarding the confidential records of judicial proceedings that each congregation has. Are they being told how to destroy these under the guise of a meeting on blood? If meetings are cancelled, that could be it.

37

Gilead

by AllTimeJeff in

i will use my other thread today to talk about gilead.. one must apply for several years to show they are serious, unless you know a gb member or another heavy in the service dept.

a couple first gets a long app in the mail usually after several years of applying at the dc.

it is over 115 questions.

AllTimeJeff

Hi to all. Here I will do the best I can...

Russell isn't stressed at all anymore beyond what is stated in the Proclaimers book. Fred Franz is the one who wrote practically ALL of the types and antitypes, and most have stuck around.

Yes, I have met most of the GB. I have my favorites, and there are those that I wonder about. Most gave lectures, and they posed for pictures after their talks. All of the libraries have tons of concordances and references, the very ones that many were DF'd for using in 1980. (ironic) They are esp well stocked I would have to say. We weren't supervised at all.

Esp when I returned in March 06, I studied the hell out of 607 BCE. Of course, it is 586/587. I included that in my letter of resignation. I know that Olaf Johnsson wrote a great book, I don't have it yet, but a lot of what I researched came from the internet based on his references. I also learned about the whole UN involvement, which was horrible. That I learned when I got back, and if I had closed the door, the UN Scandal locked it.

You get a syllabus if you will, outlining the course, the assignments are all made in advance. The men give talks, the women still have to have a householder. Interesting..... They make you shred all the tests after the end of each course.. Paranoid...

Thanks for the questions!

33

Ron Frye's book on Elder Confidentiality

by Confession in

i'm still making my way through what is an excellent book by ron frye, former jw and c.o.

i found one of his comments interesting.

on page 68 he speaks affectionately of his wife mavis.... "i especially depended on her because she was observant and discerning.

AllTimeJeff

As an elder, I told my wife nothing. I told no one anything really, even elders who weren't in my congregation.

When you consider the fact that much of the Borgs arguement against pedophillia revolves around confidentiality, you have to ask yourself at what point is it all garbage anyway. Some confide about marital problems, masturbation, drinking, watching bad entertainment. Those are personal for the most part. But being confided in things where others are hurt and victims could benefit if they knew, you have to wonder what your responsibility is at that point. Of course, if it ever came out that elders could use their discretion in what they let stay in confidence, no one would confess or tell them things anyway, which would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it?