Posts by AllTimeJeff

61

IF YOU TALK TO THE MEDIA ON BLOOD, FOCUS/GET THIS POINT IN

by skeeter1 in

i've read alot of stories on the sextuplets, and it's great to have the media reporting 'bad' light on the no-blood policy & jws in general.

but, we need to ramp it up.

the media is missing the big story - the fraction lie.

AllTimeJeff

To be sure, it is near impossible to document who does and doesn't get fractions. I think it is more importnat to examine the doctrine anyway. The fact that they are allowing fractions now has caused much uprorar on a very sensitive subject, esp to ex JW's, who have had to deal with this thinking for many years....

The fact that medicine is derived from blood, which should be poured out according to JW dogma, creates a theological problem for JW. One could intepret it many ways. But what would their most practical reason be for promoting such a near unexplainable position on fractions, considering their traditional teaching on blood?

The 6 newest and youngest GB members have inherited quite the list of weird beliefs from the old timers, the Knorrites. They obviously were dated and don't stand up to scrutiny. To admit that "we were wrong" on blood is most certainly not an option at this point, because they will get their asses sued. In addition, I am sure that they newer GB are more concerned about the preserving of life then previous generations, just my opinion on that.

So, what to do? Again, please note that the teaching of fractions was heavily promoted after Splane, Lett, Herd and Pierce came on board. They, along with Jackson and Morris most recently, sat in on GB meetings prior to joining, knew what was said, etc. This liberalization of "blood as medicine" is their way of lessening the controversy and trying to save more lives.

Because they can't come out and change the blood teaching for fear of crippling lawsuits, they are splitting hairs on this issue...... The fact that fractions contradict their own interpretation of the blood teaching imo doesn't concern them at all. They are trying to contain a massive forrest fire that the old Knorrite GB started and fanned....

I would hesitate to look for logic where it never existed in the first place. Better to try and understand the reasons behind the decisions and teachings.....

12

When we quote from the bible to prove a point do we have any right?

by Qcmbr in

one thing you'll see me and many others do is the good old bible bash with scriptures flying around.

i cannot move away from the idea however, that when we cannot agree on the interpretation of scripture how can we possibly claim our understanding is superior to anothers?

yet upon such topics hangs the supposed destination of one's soul.

AllTimeJeff

The WTS treats Scripture as some mystic document containing types and parallels that apparently point forward to their own history, such as in the 1930s. What a travesty!

Well said Doug. That is the #1 reason why I left.

There are many ways to study the bible. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will start my own soon on how multiple interpretations create real problems to claims of divinity and truth for Christians. I know I am not going to sway believers, but I look forward to the arguements....

I do believe that textual criticism and analysis are essential if you are going to be honest about your faith. To be sure, the bible does contain theology and points of view beyond the idea that Christ died for our sins. For example, 1 Corinthians is a letter Paul wrote to a congregation that was a mess. They had divisions, fornication, disorderly meetings, (women were speaking up, not a good idea in a Pauline congregation) and some were saying the ressurection had already occurred. Thus, there is a lot of theology in there, ready to be interpreted according to you own theological slant. (for that matter, 1 Cor 5 has the much debated passage in vs 9-11 that JW use for disfellowshipping. JW are the most notorious, but there are local churches I know that apply it similarly) How did that apply then, and most importantly, how does it apply today?

Doug, I am sure you are aware that other believers would tell you that how you think the bible should be intepreted is limiting at best. These internal arguements on p.o.v. that can't be proven today make belief and esp faith more and more troublesome. To use such an ancient book to prove points in the modern world is dangerous imo. I respect though your right to believe as you do. Thanks for your input.

25

What do elders talk about behind closed doors?

by JH in

just about every time i went to the kingdom hall, i used to see a few elders gather in the 2nd school and close the door and stay there maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

oh, what they were doing seemed so important... .

what the heck do they talk about behind these closed doors?.

AllTimeJeff

He was often the target, because he didn't kiss butt. It was just a given, before the CO's visit to watch your back cuz they were always up to something.

Actually, this does happen a lot, politicing and back biting... no doubt about that...

25

What do elders talk about behind closed doors?

by JH in

just about every time i went to the kingdom hall, i used to see a few elders gather in the 2nd school and close the door and stay there maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

oh, what they were doing seemed so important... .

what the heck do they talk about behind these closed doors?.

AllTimeJeff

Dear Juni,

I can see from my last response that I sort of took down what you said pretty hard. I am sorry. I should have said that what happened in your congregation isn't typical of elders meetings in general.....

I know it is easy to jump to conspiracy theories because of the secrecy, and for sure it happens. But those are exceptions, not rules. If anything, the problems with JW isn't the fact that elders talk about weird stuff (some do, most don't, and a majority of elders these days don't like elders meetings at all) but that when they do get together, their main purpose is to promote the teachings of the GB. It gets serious in there, they aren't talking about breasts, sex, whose wife is prettier, or Ren and Stempy.

One thing all of us need to remind ourselves is that the GB created a monster when it created the elder body in the 70's. If you recall C o C, the elder arrangement was implemented on a whim. It took over 15 years before the GB could get a handle on all of the weirdness that happened. Elder bodies today add a most important layer between the GB and lawsuits. Because currently, US law doesn't allow prosecution of local church decisions, all the GB needs to say (and frequently do) is "Ta da! It wasn't us, it was the local guys." Of course, they give up a certain amount of control, so many elder bodies (BOE) rule congregations differently. Everyone points to these inconsistencies on boards like this and say that their congregation was different.... THEY ALL ARE! Thats the point.... So it really depends if you have a "conservative" or liberal BOE. It will determine what you can get away with, and what you cant.......

But please be assured, even if off handed remarks take place before the meetings begin between elders who likely are friends, the purpose of the meetings remains the oversight of their congregations....

12

When we quote from the bible to prove a point do we have any right?

by Qcmbr in

one thing you'll see me and many others do is the good old bible bash with scriptures flying around.

i cannot move away from the idea however, that when we cannot agree on the interpretation of scripture how can we possibly claim our understanding is superior to anothers?

yet upon such topics hangs the supposed destination of one's soul.

AllTimeJeff

Hi Doug. I can see you are a person of faith, and that is cool. for my own reasons, I am not at the moment, I consider myself agnostic. Because this thread addresses basically how so many people use the bible to prove their own p.o.v. I think it legitimate to point out that their cannot be multiple truths.....

Also, I would be remiss to point out that your belief and all Christians in Jesus ransom comes from ancient scrolls, the same scrolls that you said

The books and letters that comprise the Scriptures were written to an immediate audience, using their contemporary speech, idioms and so on. They were not written to someone living in the 16th century, 21st century or the 26th century. They are records, not books of systematic theology.

I don't doubt that Jesus existed, I do doubt the supernatural aura that surrounds him as described in these letters. I am sure you have heard this before, and I have no desire to argue per se on this. But at the same time, I have to say that I respect less the arguement that says "Jesus died for our sins, we need to accept his sacrifice, but don't worry too much about looking for theology in the very books and letters that promote the ransom of Christ, because they are old and not meant for our modern times." How does one follow the other? It doesn't....

20

Is it brainwashing?

by jgnat in

i've had a bit of a semantic tousle with a member of this board on whether the coercive techniques used by the wtbts to obtain and retain members is "brainwashing".

i say "brainwashing" is not a good description of what goes on, i prefer "mind control", or coercive and deceptive techniques.

he argued to call it something less than "brainwashing" is to water down the destructive effects of the wts on it's members and former members.

AllTimeJeff

Personally, I can't see how calling someone "brainwashed" to their face can help them. It's insulting. It's taking the high road. It's like telling someone: "I'll pray for you.". It's condescending and insulting! That's an excellent way to loose rapport.

Rather than use labels, why not just state the facts and let the facts stand for themselves?

This is somewhat late, but I couldn't agree more with you Gary. Platitudes by angry ex JW, no matter how much pain they may be in or how sincere they are, doesn't further the cause of exposing JW's very much.

Everything must be examined case by case, one point at a time. I was called brainwashed more then once at the door, and guess what? I tuned them out, feeling mad and insulted. If someone had the intelligence and patience to reason with me on points, it would have been much better.....

Truthfully, most people don't care if JW's are brainwashed or not..... So the ones who yell it look as crazy at times as the cult they are calling out. And again, I think this backs up a point I have observed: You can't call a group a cult very easily when so many, most even, know or has JW friends at work, school etc... It's not that JW aren't a cult, its the word association most people have with cult.... Jim Jones, Heavens Gate, etc. You have to handle JW differently...

61

IF YOU TALK TO THE MEDIA ON BLOOD, FOCUS/GET THIS POINT IN

by skeeter1 in

i've read alot of stories on the sextuplets, and it's great to have the media reporting 'bad' light on the no-blood policy & jws in general.

but, we need to ramp it up.

the media is missing the big story - the fraction lie.

AllTimeJeff

Wow, this lookes like a lively thread...

I know of my former personal friends who recevied blood fractions as described in the WT these last few years... I obviously haven't done the research that skeeter and others have, but the GB wants the medical community to know that JW can have fractions, and they want more of their flock to get these treatments. If they did, it would minimize the amount of negative publicity that always follow them around....

But the legacy that "all blood MUST be poured onto the ground" is so ingrained in the flock, it comes as no surprise to me to hear that most of the old timers say no to the conscience decision of fractions.... I know myself when I first became aware of fractions being allowed, marked "no fractions at all" on my blood card....

It is hypocritital of the GB, and makes no sense at all. It is so confusing, only a very small amount of elders can explain it correctly, and there are still traditionalists among the branch and GB personnel who wish it never started. Fractions come from blood, blood should be poured out. So if you don't use blood in an unscriptural manner, where and how will you be able to harvest the fractions to use as medicine?

25

What do elders talk about behind closed doors?

by JH in

just about every time i went to the kingdom hall, i used to see a few elders gather in the 2nd school and close the door and stay there maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

oh, what they were doing seemed so important... .

what the heck do they talk about behind these closed doors?.

AllTimeJeff

Well JH to answer your question I do know two things for a fact. Per my husband who was in these mtgs. - they talk about how brother "gets a lot of nu***" is sooooooooo fortunate cause the other brothers get it only once/twice a week.

Ummm, no, that isn't what they talk about. If that did happen, it was in that congregation.....

C'mon ex JW's, people who are serious about leaving look at some of these posts, roll their eyes and get ready for the next meeting. This does nothing for revealing the real problems with JW's when you make stuff up. Might as well say they are talking about all the naughty things you can do with veggies. I mean, you do have to be credible, right?

13

King of the North = UN

by JWFreak in

jw
friends

hi i have stopped going to the meetings for the past month or so.

my po drops in today to give me a shepherding visit etc and says he has heard from brooklyn that the latest wt has named the un as the king of the north.

has anyone else heard this crazy rumour.... he is someone who often gets these things wrong .

AllTimeJeff

My PO drops in today to give me a shepherding visit etc and says he has heard from Brooklyn that the latest WT has named the UN as the king of the north.

That is one thing I loooove about JW, they always want to seem to be the first with new info...

I have been out a few months, but unless it appears in a WT, or at least heard at a DC, it isn't official... Bet he heard a loose cannon comment at morning worship and is running with it....

9

blood transfusions among the ancients

by truthsearcher in

is there any evidence that blood transfusion was attempted in ancient history--ie ancient egypt, greece, rome?

could it be that the bible does refer to these practices in the "abstain from blood" passages?.

arming myself for my hlc meeting, any help or suggestions are appreciated.. ts.

AllTimeJeff

Truthseeker

Sorry to ask you on this thread, but are you on an HLC? Just curious... Thanks