Oh man, I am having trouble seeing the responses... Not this one!
AKJeff, ignore the attempts of some to derail this and be sure to restart it if we can't get more replies.
AllTimeJeff
JoinedPosts by AllTimeJeff
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14
Is Believing in God Immoral?
by AK - Jeff ina recurrent theme thrust forward by many theists is that morality is unattainable without belief in god.
the idea seems to pervade that thinking, that without god-restraint, fear of lost eternity, man would run seriously amok, freely plundering, murdering, and bringing general havoc upon the innocent.
might there be some logical points to counter such thinking.
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322
God and Suffering
by AK - Jeff ina few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.
the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.
today i came across this:.
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AllTimeJeff
Until someone can logically explain why God "allows" suffering and doesn't step in, I could give a rats behind about the reconciliation. But here is one thing you have stated over and over.
We are born sinful.
Thats right, that little baby is doomed unless he accepts what, in your mind Perry, is the only way to reconciliation with god. Jesus.
That baby will grow, develop all kinds of personality traits, might even be born in China, or a Muslim country, where logically, they are doomed because they won't accept Jesus.
Doomed. Baby. Born dead unless he accepts Christ. Doomed because our original parents ate a piece of fruit after a discussion of good vs evil with a snake.
Logic?
Your premise is wrong. Always has been. You fight this point because without it, you would have to back off a lot of your statements, but you can't prove logically why we are alienated from god without the illogical Genesis account. Genesis is an allegory at best. Without accepting that I am in need of reconciliation based on the 2 naked people and snake story, I have no need for your snake oil.
You refuse to see that sin is a control mechanism of religion, of which, you personally have bought. Again and again, I respect your right to view things exactly as you do for you. But to argue it for others in the manner you do, and I must object.
No logic. Premise based on fairy tales. That is what you believe in Perry.
So in view of the foregoing, why would I try to find the illogic in the reconciliation of Jesus when the whole thing is illogical?
In short, your starting line belief that we are sinners in need of reconciliation based on the eating of a fruit by 2 naked people in some garden in the middle east after being talked into it by a snake is illogical. It's all downhill from there.
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70
Does Anyone Miss Being In The Jehovah's Witness Cult?
by minimus ini saw 6 jw zombies walking up a hill near where i live the other day.
they all were dressed nicely.
they walked together in twos.
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AllTimeJeff
What I really miss is preparting 2 meeting parts, 2 shep calls, judical cases, elders meeting, RBC duties, letters to read and file, oh, and the glossy eyed, upset, depressed people.
Yeah, I miss that.
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61
A Problem With General Christian Beliefs
by AllTimeJeff infirst of all, lets head off some potential problems before they start.
i am not doing this thread to argue.
if you would like to, thats fine.
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AllTimeJeff
But what I was trying to get at was the altruistic love we see so often, as well as the idiotic romantic love, serve no purpose in an evolutionary or survival of the fittest sense, so when John the writer of the letters , says "God is Love" does that mean that when we love, we bring God in to existence ?
Not that "He" exists, but that we create him by our love ?
Wobble, I think you are on to something there. As a philosophy in the abstract, it can work. Having said that, you don't need to call it this to love others. It merely is an interpretation, but doesn't prove the superiority of Christianity, nor is Christianity necesarry to believe this if you want to have this philosophy as your own personal religion.
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322
God and Suffering
by AK - Jeff ina few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.
the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.
today i came across this:.
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AllTimeJeff
Oh, the illogic of the Bible, with Seas parting, Floods happening, families through incest (Lot and his merry daughters) and the "investigation" of Sodom and Gomorrah before they were "salted" away.
And that's just Genesis and Exodus.
Yup, lots of logic.....
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61
A Problem With General Christian Beliefs
by AllTimeJeff infirst of all, lets head off some potential problems before they start.
i am not doing this thread to argue.
if you would like to, thats fine.
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AllTimeJeff
Hi all. If I should have said Jesus is God the Son, then that is what I meant. I apologize for my over simplification.
PSac, I haven't done a 180. If anything, I probably line up with more of your vibe then I do say AKJeff on my feelings that I think a higher power exists. I also think love is the #1 thing a human can do for another. (thus the many questions AKJeff has about god, which are most valid)
AllTimeJeff, If I may say this, and you are free to disagree with me. Everyone, regardless of what they say or how they act, everyone has a religion, a faith in something.
This looks like a semantics problem where you have your own definitions for words, so I would rather steer clear of that. I don't know from my point of view how you can say everyone has their own religion. I would allow you that perhaps, faith is something we all have, but religion? Not me.
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322
God and Suffering
by AK - Jeff ina few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.
the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.
today i came across this:.
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AllTimeJeff
As usual, I appreciate you PSac.
AKJeff, don't sweat the small stuff (aka Perry's "responses") He is clearly wired to defend his god so much that he will do whatever he can to win an argument, be that minimizing or demonizing an argument, dodge, ask a question to answer a question, literally every technique he learned as a JW.
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60
I turn on the news to see Sarah Palin taking on the Family Guy writer
by dinah ini think she should just try to bring it.
she's out-gunned.. .
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AllTimeJeff
Quayle fought Murphy Brown. Bush I fought The Simpsons. Palin picks on Family Guy.
....and rural Kansas rejoiced!
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61
A Problem With General Christian Beliefs
by AllTimeJeff infirst of all, lets head off some potential problems before they start.
i am not doing this thread to argue.
if you would like to, thats fine.
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AllTimeJeff
First of all, lets head off some potential problems before they start. I am not doing this thread to argue. If you would like to, thats fine. Also, I totally understand and allow that someones individual beliefs as a Christian might be very different from the organized religion I am referring to here.
Ok, here goes.
In thinking about the claims Christians in general make, overall, they feel they worship the one true god, Jesus. You will frequently hear statements that Jesus saves us from our sins, that Jesus will protect his people, destroy the wicked. (if you don't think he will destroy the wicked, thats fine, I talk to people everyday who says he will do that to non Christians. So lets acknowledge that these kinds of Christians are out there)
Then there is the matter of those who learn evolution and see that science and the bible are at odds when a literal reading is done. Of course, if it requires more then a literal reading, my next question is, who gets to interpret these supposedly non literal passages. You? Me?
Then there is the problem of the accident of your birth. Christianity as a percentage is somewhere in the 12-15% range depending on the numbers you choose to use. Hardly an overwhelming number for the one true religion.
I personally continue to see that there isn't a lot of acknowledgment on the above issues. While on the one hand, they feel their way worship is best, their god superior. Yet other religions claim the exact same thing with their holy book, their deities, and their dogma and explanations. All sides who make such claims have the exact same evidence.
While doubt is mentioned by some as a key ingredient to a healthy faith, in the bible, it is also condemned. Even if you personally don't condemn it, most Christians do. And what about doubters who are scientists, rationalists, humanists, who are only being intellectually honest with the questions and objections they raise?
If asked, I don't mind saying that I am Christian, much in the same way Catholics say they are Catholic. (i.e. they were raised that way, that is their identity) I come from a Judeo-Christian background in a Judeo-Christian world. So that is indelibly part of me. However, I don't worship the Christian god, I am a cultural Christian. (btw, if that offends, I won't make a big deal out of it if you don't want to call me a Christian, that isn't my point...)
What I see as a problem is the sheer number/math issue. God is god. You can't all be right. Yet, Christians are a minority. Even if that isn't the point, the fact that the majority of the world believe differently due to background, culture, etc, seems to put their lives at danger.
What will Jesus do with the continent of Asia? Burn it? They can't possibly be saved. Muslims? Sure is a shame that over a billion people are born into a hatred of Christianity. These poor people never have a chance. Is that their fault?
So why believe that you have the best religion, the best god, that your beliefs are superior, when for most people on planet earth, they are not? And what does that say about your god that most people truly don't have even a remote chance of ever converting, ever learning about Jesus, due to the accident of their birth?
The smaller the world gets, the less important religion becomes.
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60
I turn on the news to see Sarah Palin taking on the Family Guy writer
by dinah ini think she should just try to bring it.
she's out-gunned.. .
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AllTimeJeff
So, Fox news is bashing Fox network for airing such a cruel program.
You speak the truth Billy. I think this all the time.
Meanwhile, on liberal NBC, Parenthood the TV show debuts next week. Lots of LGBT parents on that one... ;)