Posts by Eliveleth

Are discharged members just thrown out into the street? Or are there arrangements that are made for as smooth a transition as possible. I don't know. Perhaps one of you experts on this subject can outline the procedure. Or maybe you don't know either. In which case why don't you call Bethel out of concern and find out how this all works.

Proplog,

I know of two cases personally of members of the Bethel family's smooth transitions. One is Ray Franz. When he left (was thrown out) of Bethel, he was 70 years old. He went to work for a JW brother who owned a large grocery warehouse. He did yard work!!! When the brothers in the local congregation saw him having lunch with this kind brother one day, they disfellowshipped him too.

Another was a man in his 70s called Ed Dunlap. He was one of the writers who collaborated on the James book and the Aid to Bible Understanding. When he was asked to leave Bethel,his brother (also a JW) gave him a job with his wallpaper business, hanging wallpaper! His brother was also disfellowshipped for giving him a job. Neither of the men or their wives had children. They had worked for decades at Bethel. They had no where to go except for the kindness of people they knew. I am sure if they had known what problems their employment would have caused their brothers, they would have been reluctant to have even considered working for them.

Both of these men have since seen the unkindness and error of the Watchtower Governing Body and have left the organization. You cannot help but see that the organization is totally devoted to only their interests and not that of anyone who has devoted their lives to working for them.

Love and hugs,

Velta

19

No one comes to the Father but through Me

by JH in

can anyone explain to me what "no one comes to the father but through me" means ?.

i told my mom, who is getting baptized tomorrow in the baptist faith, that we have to pray to the father, not jesus like they do.

she told me that they pray to jesus because jesus said, "no one comes to the father but through me", so they pray to jesus directly, and then he relays the prayer to the father.

Eliveleth

Thanks Eliveleth for your post. What you say sounds good, but from a JW point of view, if you don't adore the true God, you're dead, because the father is a jealous God.
14For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God;

JH,

I know that the WT and JWs have a different point of view but this is what the Bible says:

God does not want us worshipping false gods, the Bible says that. At John 1:1 the NWT says that the "Word is a god". We all know there is only one true God, right? Is the Word (Jesus) a true god or a false god?

Hebrews 1:6

"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angelsworship him."

Even the New World translation says this. If the angels are commanded to worship Him by GOD, his Father, then why would we, being lower than the angels, not worship Him?

Lets say you are a King and you have a son you love very much, but there is something going on in a town aways from you and you send your son to go and find out what is happening and to encourage the people in the town. Your son goes and tells the people that there is hope and that you love them and have sent him to them so that they will be able to rise above their situation. They begin to have hope. But the ones oppressing them don't like that he is taking the people out from under their control, so they beat up your son and leave him for dead. Some of the towns people take him to a hospital and he gets well and returns to you.

He starts getting letters and phone calls from these people thanking him for what he has done.

What do you do? Do you get angry with these people, saying I am the one who sent him, don't thank him, thank me? I think not. Most fathers I know would be proud of their son and happy that people were thanking him. I am not a father, I am a mother, but I know that is how I would feel.

Jesus said: I and my father are one. (I am not using this verse to prove a trinity, but just to show the oneness of unity between the Father and the Son) I believe if we worship one, we worship the other just by association.

Love and hugs,

Velta

19

I wish you all could read what I wrote to my family.... computer illerate.

by dawg in

jw
friends

i would give my left nut if one of you could tell me how to post my e-mail that i gave to my family tonight... i'll e-mail it to you and i guarentee you its entertaining.... please tell me how to post it., or better yet, give me your e-mail, and i'll let you post it...

Eliveleth

Hi Honey,

Granny is here! You know us old folks have to get our sleep. I am so proud of you. You know that. God has His hand on you and

I think you know it. The Bible says "God is love". With your heart, no one can wonder that you are not in tune with His love.

Some day all lovers of righteousness will stand together. There are a lot of us out there. No one can put us down unless we let them.

You are in my heart and prayers, my dear one.

Love and hugs,

Gramma Velta

58

Being a Pro-Life Atheist

by B_Deserter in

jw
friends

it's strange and i'm not sure if it's because of my upbringing, but i just can't be pro-choice.

i just don't see the rational justification (other than a situation where the mother's life is in danger).

i don't, however, see a problem with stuff like the morning-after pill, when the embryo is just a group of cells with no consciousness.

Eliveleth

It’s an unlikely prospect that the majority of citizens, properly informed, will ever be persuaded that the continued existence of a microscopic, minutes-old, newly implanted conceptus should override the autonomy rights and liberty interests of the mother, father, or any other fully sentient and self-interested party to an abortion decision.

I have always been pro-life. I do not see this as strictly a religious issue. When you interrupt the life of a fetus, no matter what stage, you are interrupting the life of a future human. There are many brilliant, worthwhile humans in this world, that would be sorely missed if their journey to a term pregnancy had been interrupted. It is stated above that "citizens, properly informed will be persuaded that the continued existence of a microscopic, minutes-old, new implanted conceptus should override the autonomy rights and liberty interests" (of adults). Most abortions do not take place at the moment or minutes later after conception. I have an ultra sound of my grandchild which is 3 months old. I can see the legs, feet and fingers!!!! Many abortions take place close to the 6th month and there have been fetuses that when delivered at that state that have survived. There have even been abortions performed on babies in the birth canal. I believe that each person that is conceived has the potential to be a valuable addition to the world. Human life has become so worthless that hearts have been hardened. I noticed in this article that human life is termed "weeds". I think the prevalence of abortion has cheapened life. We are not concerned that a human embryo does not have a chance to live.

I would never go out and picket abortion clinics or tell someone that they could not have an abortion because that is up to each individual, but I have known women that have become very depressed after an abortion even though they made that decision for themselves. I met a woman when I was going from door to door as a Jehovah's Witness who came to the door in tears saying she had had an abortion. I tried to comfort her, thinking it was recent, but she told me it had been over a year before. There is something special in the relationship between a woman and an unborn child. My daughter lost a baby at 3 months and cried for three days. Each person must decide for themselves, but I believe it should be a very serious decision based on a lot of thought. Who knows what each child is capable of growing to be.

Love and hugs,

Velta

34

Coming up on one year on the forum..what I've learned/Thanks

by dawg in

jw
friends

to the forum, please read even if its long...i want to thank you all.

i remember when i first started posting here, almost one year ago...i had just written letters to evey jw i could find telling them what a bunch of bs the jws were.... most wanted to kill me, including my dad, who called me a fornicator, and called all my friends wanting to know what drug i was on.... i learned that jws will always try and find wrongs in the character who's showing the inconsistiancies, they never will listen to what you're saying just attack your character.

but there have been a few that i've reached; some have even taken a stand with me.. i also learned that people have different circumstances, that i shouldn't judge those that don't take a stand.

Eliveleth

Dawg,

Your words touched my heart so deeply. I cannot speak for other people, but I am sure that they have been touched too. I love you so much. I have not met you, but I feel your heart in your posts. I feel your pain and lonliness and your desire to reach those still trapped inside the Watchtower organization.

You are so right, Honey, age makes no difference in the world. I am still the person I was when I was at 20, inside. (except I am a lot smarter :o) What you are inside, your spirit, your heart is who you really are. What people see is just an earth-suit waiting to be discarded for the real you. And yes, we will always have the memories.

You said: I long for the sunshine, the Summer... please forgive me becasue I'm slow tonight, the winter makes me a little dim.

I am a summer person too. I hate the cold that permeates my old bones and makes me sit in my room by the heater. I long to be out in the warm summer heat, planting and trimming my bushes and trees. To have my hands in the moist earth, planting seed that will grow and produce fruit.

Your two posts were sheer poetry. They moved me more than you know.

The time will come when you will have a family again. It will be wonderful and you will know that God put them in your life. He has already given you a family here who accepts you for who you are and who love you because you are real and not just a facade put up for the world to see.

I almost missed this because I usually only go back three lists, but for some reason today, I went back four. I am so glad I did. I would not have wanted to miss your heartfelt expression of love.

Love and hugs,

Your Gramma Velta

19

I wish you all could read what I wrote to my family.... computer illerate.

by dawg in

jw
friends

i would give my left nut if one of you could tell me how to post my e-mail that i gave to my family tonight... i'll e-mail it to you and i guarentee you its entertaining.... please tell me how to post it., or better yet, give me your e-mail, and i'll let you post it...

Eliveleth

Dawg, Honey,

This is such a heartfelt and passionate plea to your family. I hope that they hear you. It is so hard to know the truth and

have your family turn such a deaf ear to your pleas that they understand, reason. I know that they will know the truth

someday. I know that my son knows the truth. He died in November of last year. In the meantime, it is hard. I miss my grandchildren and

grand-children who are still in, but God has given me you and the many on this board. I have gained a hundredfold. I love you and your

passion for truth. God loves you too. He feels your pain.

Love and hugs,

Gramma Velta

5

Coincidence or God's Hand?

by Eliveleth in

he looked me up and down, then asked my age.

go with your brothers.

' i said to my brothers.

Eliveleth

A friend sent me this story today. I read it and was amazed. I checked it out online and it is a true story.I have posted the link at the end of the story.

I hope it will touch your heart as it did mine.

Love and hugs,

Velta

A Girl with an Apple

<http://smileycons.com/>

August 1942. Piotrkow, Poland. The sky was gloomy that morning as we waited anxiously. All the men, women and children of Piotrkow's Jewish ghetto had been herded into a square. Word had gotten around that we were being moved. My father had only recently died from typhus, which had ran rampant through the crowded ghetto. My greatest fear was that our family would be separated.

'Whatever you do,' Isidore, my eldest brother, whispered to me, 'don't tell them your age. Say you're sixteen.' I was tall for a boy of 11, so I could pull it off. That way I might be deemed valuable as a worker. An SS man approached me, boots clicking against the cobblestones. He looked me up and down, then asked my age. 'Sixteen,' I said. He directed me to the left, where my three brothers and other healthy young men already stood.

My mother was motioned to the right with the other women, children, sick and elderly people. I whispered to Isidore, 'Why?' He didn't answer. I ran to Mama's side and said I wanted to stay with her. 'No,' she said sternly. 'Get away. Don't be a nuisance. Go with your brothers.' She had never spoken so harshly before. But I understood: She was protecting me. She loved me so much that, just this once, she pretended not to. It was the last I ever saw of her.

My brothers and I were transported in a cattle car to Germany. We arrived at the Buchenwald concentration camp one night weeks later and were led into a crowded barrack. The next day, we were issued uniforms and identification numbers. 'Don't call me Herman anymore.' I said to my brothers. 'Call me 94983.'

I was put to work in the camp's crematorium, loading the dead into a hand-cranked elevator. I, too, felt dead. Hardened, I had become a number. Soon, my brothers and I were sent to Schlieben, one of Buchenwald's sub-camps near Berlin. One morning I thought I heard my mother's voice Son, she said softly but clearly, I am sending you an angel. Then I woke up. Just a dream. A beautiful dream. But in this place there could be no angels. There was only work. And hunger. And fear.

A couple of days later, I was walking around the camp, around the barracks, near the barbed-wire fence where the guards could not easily see. I was alone. On the other side of the fence, I spotted someone: a young girl with light, almost luminous curls. She was half-hidden behind a birch tree. I glanced around to make sure no one saw me. I called to her softly in German.

'Do you have something to eat?' She didn't understand. I inched closer to the fence and repeated question in Polish. She stepped forward. I was thin and gaunt, with rags wrapped around my feet, but the girl looked unafraid. In her eyes, I saw life. She pulled an apple from her woolen jacket and threw it over the fence. I grabbed the fruit and, as I started to run away, I heard her say faintly, 'I'll see you tomorrow.'

I returned to the same spot by the fence at the same time every day. She was always there with something for me to eat - a hunk of bread or, better yet, an apple. We didn't dare speak or linger. To be caught would mean death for us both. I didn't know anything about her just a kind farm girl except that she understood Polish. What was her name? Why was she risking her life for me? Hope was in such short supply, and this girl on the other side of the fence gave me some, as nourishing in its way as the bread and apples.

Nearly seven months later, my brothers and I were crammed into a coal car and shipped to Theresienstadt camp in Czechoslovakia.. 'Don't return,' I told the girl that day. 'We're leaving.' I turned toward the barracks and didn't look back, didn't even say good-bye to the girl whose name I'd never learned, the girl with the apples.

We were in Theresienstadt for three months. The war was winding down and Allied forces were closing in, yet my fate seemed sealed. On May 10, 1945, I was scheduled to die in the gas chamber at 10:00 AM. In the quiet of dawn, I tried to prepare myself. So many times death seemed ready to claim me, but somehow I'd survived. Now, it was over. I thought of my parents. At least, I thought, we will be reunited.

At 8 A.M. there was a commotion. I heard shouts, and saw people running every which way through camp. I caught up with my brothers. Russian troops had liberated the camp! The gates swung open. Everyone was running, so I did too.

Amazingly, all of my brothers had survived; I'm not sure how. But I knew that the girl with the apples had been the key to my survival. In a place where evil seemed triumphant, one person's goodness had saved my life, had given me hope in a place where there was none. My mother had promised to send me an angel, and the angel had come.

Eventually I made my way to England where I was sponsored by a Jewish charity, put up in a hostel with other boys who had survived the Holocaust and trained in electronics. Then I came to America, where my brother Sam had already moved. I served in the U. S. Army during the Korean War, and returned to New York City after two years. By August 1957 I'd opened my own electronics repair shop. I was starting to settle in.

One day, my friend Sid who I knew from England called me. 'I've got a date. She's got a Polish friend. Let's double date.' A blind date? Nah, that wasn't for me. But Sid kept pestering me, and a few days later we headed up to the Bronx to pick up his date and her friend Roma. I had to admit, for a blind date this wasn't so bad. Roma was a nurse at a Bronx hospital. She was kind and smart. Beautiful, too, with swirling brown curls and green, almond-shaped eyes that sparkled with life.

The four of us drove out to Coney Island. Roma was easy to talk to, easy to be with. Turned out she was wary of blind dates too! We were both just doing our friends a favor. We took a stroll on the boardwalk, enjoying the salty Atlantic breeze, and then had dinner by the shore. I couldn't remember having a better time.

We piled back into Sid's car, Roma and I sharing the back-seat. As European Jews who had survived the war, we were aware that much had been left unsaid between us. She broached the subject, 'Where were you,' she asked softly, 'during the war?' 'The camps,' I said, the terrible memories still vivid, the irreparable loss. I had tried to forget. But you can never forget.

She nodded. 'My family was hiding on a farm in Germany, not far from Berlin,' she told me. 'My father knew a priest, and he got us Aryan papers.' I imagined how she must have suffered too, fear, a constant companion. And yet here we were, both survivors, in a new world.

'There was a camp next to the farm.' Roma continued. 'I saw a boy there and I would throw him apples every day.'

What an amazing coincidence that she had helped some other boy. 'What did he look like? I asked. He was tall, Skinny, and Hungry. I must have seen him every day for six months.' My heart was racing. I couldn't believe it. This couldn't be. 'Did he tell you one day not to come back because he was leaving Schlieben?' Roma looked at me in amazement. 'Yes,' That was me! ' I was ready to burst with joy and awe, flooded with emotions. I couldn't believe it … My angel.

'I'm not letting you go.' I said to Roma. And in the back of the car on that blind date, I proposed to her. I didn't want to wait. 'You're crazy!' she said. But she invited me to meet her parents for Shabbat dinner the following week. There was so much I looked forward to learning about Roma, but the most important things I always knew: her steadfastness, her goodness. For many months, in the worst of circumstances, she had come to the fence and given me hope. Now that I'd found her again, I could never let her go.

That day, she said yes. And I kept my word. After nearly 50 years of marriage, two children and three grandchildren I have never let her go.

Herman Rosenblat Miami Beach, Fl. This is a true story and you can find out more by Googling Herman Rosenblat as he was bar mitzvahed at age 75. This story is being made into a movie called The Fence.

http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index.php?s=8197aa44eabb5aad169be0d4fb50a7de&showtopic=8320

19

No one comes to the Father but through Me

by JH in

can anyone explain to me what "no one comes to the father but through me" means ?.

i told my mom, who is getting baptized tomorrow in the baptist faith, that we have to pray to the father, not jesus like they do.

she told me that they pray to jesus because jesus said, "no one comes to the father but through me", so they pray to jesus directly, and then he relays the prayer to the father.

Eliveleth

JH,

This is what I believe. I do not think that it offends God (the Father) if we pray to Jesus. Jesus said that he came to earth to glorify His Father and I cannot see him doing anything that would not please Him. He said at John 5:23: "that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him." Stephen when he was dying, prayed to Jesus. Acts 7:59: "....Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". Thomas called Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Even though Jesus called His Father his God, does not mean that we cannot pray to Jesus and be heard. Our Father loves Jesus and has put everything into His hands. We don't have to worry about who to pray to. God loves us and hears us.

Love and hugs,

Velta

44