Posts by fifi40

35

Altering reality where do you stand......

by fifi40 in

jw
friends

to fill you in and explain my post....... i was raised as a jw but left (not baptised) at 16. i started studying again at 24ish and was quickly baptised and got disfellowshipped aged about 32ish.

whilst i was active as a jw i socialised plenty, but it did not involve copious amounts of drink or drugs.

during my times out i have very very occasionally smoked a little dope and have been drunk more often but by no means frequently.

fifi40

Linda

Hope things are going well for you. I usually am moderate, but when I first got with my now husband the social life I became involved in was pretty excessive. Whilst we dont drink at home on a day to day basis, social events were all about loads of alcohol. My hubby is a Scot and whilst I do not tar all with the same brush, he has on occasion tried to prove he can drink for Scotland. At first I tried to be 'the same' but as well as making me feel ill ill ill for about two days after, I have also realised that any problems/arguments we have are usually due to excess and that he could become a nasty person when drunk, which he is usually not. A couple of weeks ago things came to a head, when after a drinking session at the pub (I had left at about 9.30pm) things got particularly horrible and ugly. In light of those events it has made him take stock of his drinking habits (I cant go into detail because they were pretty horrid and I would need to explain all the people involved). But the other day he actually asked me if I thought he had a drink problem and if I thought he went out with the intent of getting obliterated, to which I answered "Yes, its like abandonment of yourself". He like others within our social group dont seem to have a cut off point where they recognise that they have had enough and thats when problems arise. Having been on the receiving end of the resulting mayhem and upset once to often I am now of the opinion that I dont want this in my life anymore. It is not an ultimatum to him, but its just that I dont really want to be around people who abuse other people in whatever form, because they have lost hold of self, sense and reality. The good news is that he does seemed to have realised the impact and potential consequences excess drinking can present, so I am fingers crossed that the events of that night have been enough to open his eyes.

The reason I posted this thread is because I chose to leave the pub at about 9.30 and asked him to come with me (he had been in the pub since 4.30 and was quite worse for wear).He didnt want to leave and stayed. The reason I chose to leave is because I had had enough and wanted to get away from whats was fast becoming an over indulgent session and there were things taking place I wasnt happy about. If I had been willing to go with the flow and switched to water or coke and been tolerant of those getting wasted, things would have turned out differently that night but I chose to go because I wasnt comfortable with it. And yet I see couples who are quite happy in each others company getting rat arsed and ridiculous. For me I cant find the fun in it and I dont really think there is any!!!

35

Altering reality where do you stand......

by fifi40 in

jw
friends

to fill you in and explain my post....... i was raised as a jw but left (not baptised) at 16. i started studying again at 24ish and was quickly baptised and got disfellowshipped aged about 32ish.

whilst i was active as a jw i socialised plenty, but it did not involve copious amounts of drink or drugs.

during my times out i have very very occasionally smoked a little dope and have been drunk more often but by no means frequently.

fifi40

To fill you in and explain my post....... I was raised as a JW but left (not baptised) at 16. I started studying again at 24ish and was quickly baptised and got disfellowshipped aged about 32ish.

Whilst I was active as a JW I socialised plenty, but it did not involve copious amounts of drink or drugs. During my times out I have very very occasionally smoked a little dope and have been drunk more often but by no means frequently. My experience since disfellowshipping have been that folk love to get out of their faces, abandon sense and talk absolute gibberish. Now I am not including all and everyone here but there does seem to be a need for people to use alcohol and drugs as a means to escape reality or to enjoy themselves. And if I am quite honest whilst I enjoy a glass or three of wine (or maybe four) I dont feel the need to get obliterated and I feel nervous of people who do. I cant seem to get into the whole big drinking (or drugs) thing (by drugs I actually mean dope). I wonder if this is to do with my JW experience and their teachings, wether it is to do with the fact that my mum has always drunk and can be quite nasty and obnoxious when she has had to many or what it is.

I am just not that relaxed around people who are excessive and I cant seem to go with the flow on it........and I tend to view people getting wasted as a means for them to escape reality because they dont like what their life is.

Does anyone else have opinions on this subject?

46

Is Anyone Looking Forward To The Sopranos Coming Back???

by minimus in

jw
friends

i am.

i think they wait way too long though for their series to come back on!

fifi40

One of the best but we Brits will have to wait and we (as in me and mine) always wait longer and get the box set..........pure indulgence......I cant wait

7

Let it go!

by journey-on in

jw
friends

i got this in an email today and it came at just the right time.

some days the pain we experience from our loved ones shunning us simply because we have chosen a different spiritual path can be excrutiating.

if i had chosen a life of immorality or a criminal path, perhaps i could justify it to some extent, but all i did was study, research, pray, and choose to go in a different spiritual direction.

fifi40

Journey on

Thanks for the post......Let it Go.........is a great reminder and gives strength.

Wishing you happiness

Fi

87

WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?

by Terry in

who was the injured party?

in the garden of eden when both adam and his wife, eve rebelled against instructions from their landlord, jehovah.. "in the day you eat of it (the fruit) you shall surely die.".

adam and eve ate of it.

fifi40

Proplog2 please in future refer to me as the 'village idiot', it has so much more of a pleasant ring to it and is in fact more appropriate. I have no problem with you putting me in the said bin as I will be keeping good company, all humans are capable of being idiots at some point during their life and most are at some point. Sticking labels on people, now thats a great sport I am sure we will have a lot of fun doing it. For some it is okay to call someone else's argument weak and fallacious, but when the table is turned and it is our own opinion that is criticised we dont like it.

In calling your response utter rubbish, I explained why I considered it so. To talk about this story in terms of 'contracts' and legal problems is ridiculous. Try suing God - actually there is quite a humourous film with Billy Connolly in about this, The Man who sued God - idiots might like it. Whatever, and I dont presume to know, Adam knew about Gods expectations, instruction or the consequence's he was dealing with someone with infinite wisdom and all knowing. Adam was Gods creation, therefore God knew what to expect from him. In the same way we dont expect our children to behave perfectly at all times because that is not how they are born, yet we still take care of them, guide them and love them, God knew he had created Adam with the ability to sin. If he knew this and knew the impact this would have on Adam and all subsequent offspring then he is not of a loving, fair God. I say again the playing field could never be level.

I never said God said he would kill Adam, but he did say that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, in the day you eat from it you will positively die. He had given them life and he was taking it away. If someone serves me with an ultimatum that requires obedience on my part or else I will die (and so will generations of my descendants), I may well obey, but I wont be a willing participant who has agreed to this so called contract. But being an IDIOT I may well disobey anyway!!!!

And so rests my case (not that you will be replying to such drivel anyway)

All the best to you

Fi

87

WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?

by Terry in

who was the injured party?

in the garden of eden when both adam and his wife, eve rebelled against instructions from their landlord, jehovah.. "in the day you eat of it (the fruit) you shall surely die.".

adam and eve ate of it.

fifi40

Proplog2 - what utter rubbish!!!!

How could man (Adam and Eve) be considered willing participants in a contract that was totally one sided from the start. They did not ask to be created, were given no choice in that or the agreement god put in place once HE HAD CREATED them. A contract is made between to willing sides who are both well informed and experienced before they make their decision to become involved. What would have happened if rather than eating from the tree, they had just simply said we dont accept the terms. There was no place for them to go, it is a matter of do as I say or else, basically. Adam and Eve had no choice really and all the odds were stacked in Gods favour. He holds all the cards. Hardly what you could call a level or fair playing field.

To compare this to a legal argument that God could justiflably opt out of is like saying when you decide to have kids and they dont do as they are told you opt out of caring and looking after their interests. I know people will argue that Adam and Eve were perfect, and our children are not, but they were as God made them. Like children they had no choice in their being bought into this world, and he made them with the ability to sin, to be flawed, in the same way we have children knowing they will not always do as we tell or act in a PERFECT way. God already knew this about Adam and Eve, otherwise it would not have been necessary for him to put this test to them.

The question really is - God created man for his own pleasure, whatever form that pleasure took. Man did not request to be made. After making man, which he designed with the ability to sin, reason for themselves, not behave perfectly, listen to someone wishing to deceive and become convinced, he was dissappointed to find that they acted in a way in which he had created them able to, and for that he exacted his punishment not just on them but on all subsequent offspring. Do you or anyone else believe the punishment fits the crime? That these two humans created by God acted in a way that he had created them able to. That the suffering, hardship and pain endured since then by many millions of humans is right compared to one act of disobedience by the first pair. If he wanted perfect worship he should have created them/us without fault or the ability to fail. If he wanted humans to excercise freedom to worship he should have accepeted that they may choose not to. Why give freedom to choose anyway if you are not willing to accept the decision made by the people choosing. If we acted in a God like way we really would say to our kids "Eat anything you want in the house, but if you eat that one chocolate left in the box you will have to die". Extreme I know but thats about the top and bottom of it.

87

WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?

by Terry in

who was the injured party?

in the garden of eden when both adam and his wife, eve rebelled against instructions from their landlord, jehovah.. "in the day you eat of it (the fruit) you shall surely die.".

adam and eve ate of it.

fifi40

Dear Vinny

Whilst I appreciate and understand your replies there are certain things you should consider.

Firstly, whilst I like Terry's threads because they are usually thought provoking and interesting I could hardly class him as a friend, we live 1000's of miles apart, have never met and probably never will. I will agree that he can on occassion be dismissive of others peoples belief's and accuse them of being ridiculous, which in his opinion they are. It is my experience of him that his opinion is usually well thought out, reasoned, researched and his life experience has led him to approach things in such a manner. Again I state he has no need of my defense or any others, he is a big boy and is more than capable of vindicating his own argument.

Secondly, a belief in a God is a deeply personal thing, but one which requires huge commitment to truth on our own part. If you commit to believing something because it is handed down to you from your parents or because it sits more comfortably with you than fact, you put yourself in a minefield, where at any moment an explosion can bring great harm. I understand and totally empathize with the human nature that requires a conviction that this life is not all there is, that there is something better or that God is out there and will restore mankind to his original plan for them. I cannot argue with 100 percent certainity for either side, evolution or God, but I do know for example that there are many criticisms levelled at the text of the book of Genesis and for that matter the rest of the bible. In fact 'the writers' of the book of Genesis used the word elohim in Genesis 1v1 which is actually the plural form or in otherwords Gen1v1 reads 'In the beginning, the GODS created the heavens and the earth'. This can be explained by the very fact that at one time the Jewish religion, was the same as every other religion and was polytheistic, with more than one god. And Yaweh was in fact a storm god and one of many others.

My argument is not motivated by any desire to prove anybodys faith wrong; I more than most, understand the comfort that faith in some greater being can bring; but for some, and i think Terry is one such person, they wish only to deal with fact and established truth. They are prepared to live life without a comforter and without an eternal hope.

And despite my own misgivings, I love the life I have been given with a similar appreciation of the many good things around me as yourself.

Wishing you warm waters wherever you swim

Fifi

87

WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?

by Terry in

who was the injured party?

in the garden of eden when both adam and his wife, eve rebelled against instructions from their landlord, jehovah.. "in the day you eat of it (the fruit) you shall surely die.".

adam and eve ate of it.

fifi40

Terry

WHO DID YOU KILL??????

No matter whoever it was we will get you off, there are so many defense pleas we can argue - Crime of passion, of which you have no shortage; Diminished responsibility or we could even argue that as a creation of God's, that you are in NO way responsible, as this is the way you were created, if a machine goes wrong it is the makers responsibility to fix the fault..........In fact the very fact that you put murder and horrendous in the same sentence, displays your underlying feelings toward such and act.

Urmmmmmmmmm perhaps it would be better if you just dont kill anyone horrendously, I can find you much simpler, non incriminating ways to get rid of someone......

Fifi

87

WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?

by Terry in

who was the injured party?

in the garden of eden when both adam and his wife, eve rebelled against instructions from their landlord, jehovah.. "in the day you eat of it (the fruit) you shall surely die.".

adam and eve ate of it.

fifi40

Dear Vinny

In defense of Terry (and he has no need for my or any others defense, he is well capable of that himself, well researched, well read and a deep thinker) he seeks IMHO only to make others think; he asks only that they take themselves out of their comfort zone and truly test the quality and honesty of their beliefs and reasonings. At your own admission you are not aware of some of the authors that Terry quoted, and therefore you can hardly become a critic of Terry's opinion and comments on these if you are not familiar with them. Rest assured he will have experience and knowledge of their ideas.

Nobody takes Terrys threads to be gospel truth, but neither do they view him as arrogant or narrow in his view. As you yourself stated he to was once a JW, so he has stood both sides of the fence, and its his experience and subsequent research and search for knowledge that leads to his interesting and sometimes controversial threads and comments.

I was raised with a belief in God and with a very comforting hope for the future, but what I see around me leads me to question very hard the existence of a God. If you told your child not to eat a chocoloate bar in the fridge, but they did what would be your response to this act? Would yours be a continous punishment, which extended to your grandchildren and beyond? And where does the blame actually lie? Neither Adam or Eve asked to be created and as such to be created with the ability to sin. That was all Gods doing. Can you really explain how a God of love and forgiveness can sit back and watch the evil and horrendous things that befall men knowing that he is the only one capable of bringing these things to an end?

And what about other religions and religious books? So many are just victims of the circumstance they are born into. They believe because their parents believe. How can God allow there to be so much confusion about what is right? What the true course to him is? If you are born an aetheist, and you could ignore all the conflict and sadness that occurs in the world and still want to believe in a God, it would take you a lifetime exploring all the different faiths that exist to decide which is true. Surely the path to him should be simple and clear and yet, it is not.

And why does God want worshippers? Why couldnt he be happy with a creation that lived simply and happily? Why the need to put them into a game of Chess with his adversary the devil, as if his word is to be believed, we are all pretty much in the same situation as Job?

And why the need to buy back our sin/death with the life of his own son? Why did something need to be given for his forgivness or for the redeeming of our chance at eternal life? God shouldnt need to be bought?

If you look deeper into why so many religions exist, the purposes Religion served in it particular period of time and how it changed with the social changes at any given time you may be shocked at what you learn.

Dont take for granted teachings you were given as a child and blankets of comfort 'knowledge' that serve to keep you warm and safe without really questioning the honesty, truth and reliability of their fabric.

All the best to you

Fi

87

WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?

by Terry in

who was the injured party?

in the garden of eden when both adam and his wife, eve rebelled against instructions from their landlord, jehovah.. "in the day you eat of it (the fruit) you shall surely die.".

adam and eve ate of it.

fifi40

If I had to say a prayer it would go something like this

God if you exist, as I was led to believe in my formative years, forgive my questioning of you and please understand the humble, ignorant person I am. My faith in you has long since crumbled, due to all the perverse, evil acts, desperate and sad situations that infect this earth upon which you placed us, your creation.

If you created us according to the story of Adam and Eve, you are responsible for what we have become. Man did not choose to be created, it was for your pleasing. If you created us with the ability to displease you, we did not ask you to do this and the repercussion of displeasing you, in my limited and humble opinion, far outways the act committed. You have left us like an imprisoned victim, awaiting scraps of food and water at your discretion, hoping one day if we are good enough that you will release us. You are our captor, for you and you alone, according to your book have the power to free us, to give release to the sufferings of millions. God forgive me if the intelligence you created me with, the reasoning ability you gave me, cannot equate the situation mankind finds itself in with the 'God of Love and forgivness' described in other parts of the bible.

Man has proven both his ability to do many good things, to invent and provide in ways beneficial too mankind, but also to carry out terrible acts and atrocities, some even in your name, against innocent people. According to your word you have the ability to end such things. How much suffering do you require before you bring that end? How much faith and worship do you require? And to what end? No loving parent would allow their child to suffer in such ways for such an act of disobedience.

I sincerely ask for your compassion, if this mere human brain cannot comprehend your existence because of what I see as your failure to care and correct. I am how you made me, according to the bible, and for this I cannot even ask your forgivness. If I question you made me that way, if I am ignorant and cannot believe it is at your hand, I am according to your words YOUR CREATION.