i was hoping to confirm something for an article i'm working on.
i was told that the only acceptable grounds for divorce are adultery and a husband failing to support his wife financially.
i don't believe apostasy counts, does it?
I was hoping to confirm something for an article I'm working on. I was told that the only acceptable grounds for divorce are adultery and a husband failing to support his wife financially. I don't believe apostasy counts, does it? You would think that it would, but I'm almost sure it isn't.
Thanks for any help.
IsaacJ
once again the witnesses are being pushed out there for new track work, inviting people to the district convention for the summer.. this is the third time in a few months that they go nuts in trying to cover their territory.. another way to try to get the dead witnesses out there and preach.. when will it end?
.
.
Elders are primarily concerned in covering the territory so very often they just leave the tract at the door without talking to anyone.
It's the same way here. I had the impression that was how all of them are doing it(?) Is that so, or nay?
Just wondering.
IsaacJ
*raises hand.
a few interesting quotes:.
"religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.
Believe it or not, most atheists aren't trying to prove anything. We are simply unconvinced that the available evidence points to God. For such a truly monumental claim to be accepted, it seems like there out to be a more convincing reason to believe. Or even an irrefutable reason to be believe, one left intentionally for us to find. That's all.
As to proving a negative, it may not always be true that this can't be done. But in this case, I think someone did a good job of illustrating our point (where we feel the burden of proof is on the believer) when they asked everyone to prove the existence of a historical figure.
There are other scenarios. Can you truly, positively prove to me that there are no unicorns? Maybe I think they're invisible, or they dwell in a place that man has never been to, or that there's a conspiracy to conceal their existence. Or maybe I think they were taken by aliens without a trace, so we will never find them unless the aliens bring them back. You would never be able to positively, absolutely prove they don't exist to me if I wanted to believe in them in the first place. Asking an atheist to prove God doesn't exist is a lot like that from my point of view.
But it seems like there should be evidence for a theistic god and we haven't found it yet. Some measurable, objective signs of design or evidence of its wishes. Unless it's an evil god that is merely toying with us and trying to confuse us, but why would it bother? None of the proofs we have seem to be very good. The Bible, for instance, just doesn't cut it for me. Not even close. And it seems that a natural process is at work here rather than an ordered, superhuman intelligence, which explains why human intelligence is enough to point out the design flaws.
A deistic God is another matter. But I don't see the point of believing in one, especially since I don't see how such a being matters very much. Why would I just assume that such a being is out there any more than I would accept the existence of unicorns without good, solid proof? Doubt seems like the default position with such a fantastic claim.
Note that everyone is free to believe what they want. I'm only explaining a little about my view points. I'm not arguing with anybody here. I'm already sure most of the believers completely disagree. These are just some of the reasons I disagree with them.
BTW, Dawg asked me about the articles I'd read regarding artificial life in a lab, and I can't find either of them now. So unless I can find them again, consider that a case of "Isaac speaking too darn quickly." I suck. Sorry about that. My bad.
IsaacJ
*raises hand.
a few interesting quotes:.
"religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.
Sucks to be right sometimes. [img]http://bestsmileys.com/welcome/18.gif[/img]
*raises hand.
a few interesting quotes:.
"religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.
Interesting to get some picture as to how many of us there are. I've been in Witness-turned-atheist forums in the past, but they were always either very inactive or secular in name only. And they always seemed pretty small. I had begun to think that the vast majority of ex-Witnesses became fundamentalists, though it seemed like a fair number of us would take an interest in atheism to me. Not because of our bad experiences (a lame stereotype that gets old) but because of our mindset. I tend to find that we secular types have a somewhat different view of what truth is than believers. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. But it took my experience with the WTS to get me fully on track with that way of thinking. I had begun to think I was highly unusual before I found JWD.
IsaacJ
PS-- I just want to see if this works. I doubt it will...
[img]http://bestsmileys.com/welcome/18.gif[/img]
*raises hand.
a few interesting quotes:.
"religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.
To me, this isn't terribly important. But I just wanted to point out that scientists claim to have produced completely new life forms on at least 2 separate occasions in a lab. At least one of these was by accident. I don't recall the details on the articles just now, but these events were reported in popular science magazines years ago.
Whatever the case, I don't think the ability to create life matters as much as a lot people think. Creationists will say that they still used things God created to do that, so they won't be overly impressed. I think it's very interesting, but I don't think that will change anyone's opinion much about any thing they already have opinions about.
One of my "writer wannabe" ideas was a civilization, or even a solar system, where everything was based on nanotechnology. The nanites would perform the same tasks as the organelles in a living cell. It isn't hard to see how you could organize them into something that is, by every scientific definition, alive. They could even reproduce sexually, asexually, or whatever you designed them to do. They could look and function like us, or be something bizarre. With this in mind, I tend to look at living things as complex biological machines of a sort.
Just a thought for anyone considering this stuff who hasn't thought of it already.
IsaacJ
<!-- .style1 { font-family: verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; } .style2 { font-family: verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 18px; color: #0000cc; } .style3 {font-family: verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; color: #0000cc; } --> the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.
on this board that subscribe to such.
the questions stated are not for some.
Wanderer, thanks for posting the question with good intentions. A lot of people who have issues with us don't even bother asking, or if they do, it's to vent their exasperation with what they think they know about us. After participating in the "Blasphemy Challenge" on YouTube, I can't help but be reminded of that fact. So I really appreciate you asking.
As to what it is, atheism is just the lack of belief in God. Note that atheism as a single word doesn't automatically imply one is non-religious, only non-god believing. Some religions are atheistic. Most, if not all of we atheists here, are agnostic atheists. http://atheism.about.com/ is a good place to learn more about atheism in detail.
If there was proof of God, I probably wouldn't have become an atheist. I'm not an atheist due to my WT experiences--or at least, not directly because of them. The evidence just seems to lean against the existence of God. I suspect that if I'm wrong and there is a god of any sort, it is a deistic one. I actually do doubt the existence of the Christian God, as mentioned in the Bible. I also agree with those who said he isn't presented as a very nice guy in the Bible (WT version or not). If that particular god does exist, I wouldn't worship Him because He deserves it. The best I could offer is deference out of fear to avoid getting zapped with leprosy or turned into a pillar of salt, or something. I doubt the existence of the supernatural as well. I don't see how life after death is possible, but just like everything else I say or think, I could always be wrong.
As far as meaning of life stuff goes, I don't know that the universe owes us a meaning to live. Why should we expect to be given one? We can't be lazy about this--we have to find our meaning ourselves. We were born to live and have to create our purpose. We have to use our time well instead of writing off this life in favor of some other. That's how I feel about it. Far as I'm concerned, when we look in the mirror, that's all that we are. Our minds, however, can do wonderful and even awe inspiring things. I see nothing depressing about that. It just seems like a bit of an ego trip to reject atheism on this basis to me. If it's just the way it is, and has always been, then no biggy. You know? Atheism, as mentioned by others, doesn't pretend to answer such questions. There is no philosophy, dogma, or worldview implied by atheism.
BTW, thanks for your open mindedness as well, Olvidado. :-)
IsaacJ
after 4 years of having lurking through this forum (except one time that i asked an username and used it once),i have decided to participate in this.
i am spanish, i have been living in a small town in the north of spain almos my whole life (except one year in leicester-england), but currently i am lving in germany.
my story: i have been brought up in a catholic family, but the religion was never important in my familiy.
olvidado, Welcome to the forum. My father's side of the family had some Mormon wannabes who never quite conformed to the standards. I keep hearing mixed opinions about them, though. I have often wondered how they compare to the WTS in terms of how controlling they are, and such. Since you are just thinking about leaving them, I guess you would say that they are far less controlling? Just curious about your opinion, especially since you are the first person I've spoken to that has been in both. BTW, I think your English is very good. :-) I have never been able to get a handle on any other languages myself. IsaacJ
*raises hand.
a few interesting quotes:.
"religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.
Yet another "hard core" atheist here. I'm glad someone mentioned the definition of the word. People don't realize that agnosticism isn't an in-between category. The overwhelming majority of atheists are actually agnostics as well. So are many theists, in fact.
I think the Austin Cline web site at About.com is the best on this. (I'm working on some ex-JW turned atheist articles for him right now, in fact) He addresses everything from atheists in the news to misconceptions about atheists. And there are a LOT of misconceptions. These are the things that bug me the most about people who have a real problem with atheists. Nearly everything they seem to believe about us is just plain untrue and unfair. It gets real fun when a Witness (who used to be your friend) tries to informyou about yourbeliefs as if they know better than you do, and why you are full of crap about when you try to set them straight! Mabye they should try asking me instead of making assumptions based on their reading of the WT.
Grrr...
I think the words "atheist" and "fundamentalist" need to be replaced. What good are they when we have so many definitions and misunderstandings that can apply in the same context? You can't call yourself one or the other without having to explain which of the definitions you mean. The word "atheist" just comes with too much baggage. I tend to think "non-theist" is better. But I still call myself an atheist because that's the group I best belong to. Calling yourself irreligious or a non-theist makes it sound like you're embarassed to be an atheist in the first place. You just can't win, sometimes.
i am highly considering becoming a jehovah's witness.
i have been raised in the congregration, but left it when i was a child because my mom left too, but we still retatined the core belifs including the ressurection and the blasphemous pagan influence on mainstream churches.
my mom has recently returned to the congregation, and it has helped her a lot.
I have to admit that I'm a little confused here. I don't have much interest in convincing anyone of anything. Contrary to what the Society claims, most ex-Witnesses are not rabidly crazy and have other things to do with their lives. You will have to do most of the work on this. Most of us are willing to talk about these things, but what you do is your own business.
BTW, some of the things you said don't make sense to me or are directly contradicted by what I was taught by the WTS. These could be things that have changed. They are infamous for changing their doctrines, but others have also spotted the differences here on the board already. I would recommend that you get the points you raised clarified before getting baptized. Bear in mind that Witnesses will often tell little-white-lies if they don't think you're ready to hear something yet, so you should really ask more than one person about them. Not all of them will do this, but plenty of them will.
For instance, I know of no difference in the "moral requirements" of the 144,000 vs the great crowd. They are the same. I have heard the Society say that it isn't guaranteed that people who have never had the chance to speak with a JW will be killed by Jesus during Armageddon, but only rarely and not in a long time. They usually go on to say that this is just a guess and that no one should count on that. Besides, if their numbers are true, then 100s of millions of people have heard and billions will die at Armageddon. There version of God is going to commit a holocaust that makes Hitler's look like a joke, while giving nearly everyone else that has already lived and died a free ride. I'm sorry, but the notion that the world is more "wicked" than ever before is just bologne. This is the kind of right-wing pandering that get's on my nerves; statistically, many things are actually better than ever before. The fact is that some things just get better, some things just get worse, and a hundred years from now the numbers could swing in reverse. That's the way it's always been and will probably be for a very long time if not forever.
Any way, my reasons for staying away from the WTS have nothing to do with scripture. I am not very impressed by most religions I'm afraid. It is the Society's policies and how they manipulate people that make me see them as harmful. Almost everything they do has a psychological basis, each of them small by themselves but there are so many that they add up.
I would suggest you look for information on cults and how cult experts and mental health experts test for them. Search for info online and then come back and discuss that with us. I believe some may have posted lists here that show how the Society fulfills the requirements of a cult using a wide assortment of various models to test.
Finally, think about the daily grind of a WT slave. To my mind, they are really just a very clever publishing house that indoctrinates millions of people into being lifelong subscribers to their wares. Think about it. The Witnesses peddle their literature for free. Their children work the presses for virtually nothing. Then they all turn around and buy the stuff (through donations) and often at a higher price because they are constantly reminded to do so to help the cause. The Witnesses are the Society's cash cow! You need all those new books and magazines for the meetings and the conventions often make a big deal about every new thing they produce. If they give someone the litature who doesn't donate for it, the Witness is admonished to donate for it instead! The Society is worth well over a billion dollars thanks to their slave labor force. And it's all tax free.
That's just an outline of my views. Think what you want (while you still can). It's your decision. I'm willing to bounce ideas around about what they do and why it's wrong, but I'm not campaigning against them or anything like that. If I were, they'd still have a strangle hold on my life as they once did. Nuh-uh, not for me. You must make up your own mind on this one. Discussions are still welcome, though.
IsaacJ
