Posts by IsaacJS2

This is the part I really wanted to get at. As I discussed earlier, I believe the Witnesses are addicted to a delusionally reassuring worldview. That worldview is so brittle that it requires constant maintenance from meetings, obedience to a higher power, and field service. And I think it can explain some of the completely bizarre antics we've all experienced from them in one form or another.

One of the ways that Witnesses reinforce their worldview is by surrounding themselves with others who share it. They even go out of their way to avoid people who have different ideas about most anything. But when one of us chooses to leave (whether by fading, getting disfellowshipped without trying to return, or disassociated) that puts a crack in its foundation. We know what they know, after all, and we still reject it as "The Truth." The ones who know us and respect us begin to panic when this occurs.

They panic, at least in part, because this is cause for doubt. We put a crack in their certitude, and now they need reassurance. They want us to make them feel better. And some of them are willing to demand it! Which is why they can get so pushy when commons sense says they should leave us alone. (Even disfellowshipped ex-Witnesses have stories like these)

Think about some of the things they say and do. What happens when you tell them to go away? Do they leave you alone? Not often. Their need is just too great. Instead, they hang around and start hurling bizarre accusations that are more offensive than helpful.

1. "Say what you want, but you know it's The Truth! When are you going to get is together and do what's right???"

They actually say this despite the obvious fact that you disagree. You left, did you not? You might have even told them this, only to have them repeat this statement back at you. I think they are hoping for some sign they can interpret as an acknowledgment. That, of course, would reassure them. And somehow, they always manage to find such a sign, do they not?

2. "You know how awful it is out there in the world. Only Jehovah's Witnesses will make it into the New System!"

They say this despite the fact that the system might not end before you die, or the fact that you obviously don't believe they have the True Religion at all. Threats carry no power if you don't believe in them. I think they are really hoping to find a sign from you that can be interpretted as some sort of tacit agreement. They want to see you sweat so they feel reassured that you know, deep down, you made the wrong choice. This makes them glad they made the right choice, as they see it.

3. "How could you do this to me!" I've heard many disfellowshipped ex-Witnesses get this from their families. Then what happens when you tell them you didn't do it to anyone? They don't seem to listen, do they? Or if you ask them what they mean, they get evasive. "You know what I mean!" I think they are really just outraged that you rejected a worldview that is so intertwined with their sense of self that, in effect, you rejected them. You also made it harder for them to retain that worldview, which is delicate enough as it is.

There are plenty of other examples. I'm trying not to make this too long, but feel free to offer others and the rationale behind it. My point is that, to me at least, their behavior makes more sense in this context. They are behaving defensively, in an almost panic-driven state, to save their delusion of certitude. That is why they seem so desperate.

What do you think?

IsaacJ

5

My "Delusion of Certitude" theory about the WT

by IsaacJS2 in

jw
friends

i think my essay is finally nearing completion.

everytime i think that, i find something else to work on.

but one section talks about my belief that they have (what i call) the delusion of certitude.

IsaacJS2

The Delusion Of Certitude PT 1

And How We, The "The Lost Sheep," Help Them Maintain It

No one has enough information about the universe to truly know if they have "The Truth." To me, anyone who claims to have the absolute, ultimate truth of everything is literally claiming to have absolute knowledge. Yet this is simply beyond our grasp. All we do have is a highly subjective worldview. Still, that doesn't stop us from craving The Truth. We also desire control, and believe it or not, I think the Witnesses have another catch-phrase I'd like to introduce: the illusion of choice.

I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses (and other people with extreme, absolutist worldviews) are addicted to this false sense of certitude. They have convinced themselves that their worldview is the only one that could possibly be The Truth. The Watchtower's system of things is designed to reinforce this easily fractured ideology. I think many of us have little trouble believing that one, so I won't go into too much detail. But while the meetings and literature go a long ways toward reinforcing their worldview every other day of every week of their lives, I think that field service is the real key.

There are generally 3 possible outcomes at every door a Witness knocks on. Either no one is home (the most common outcome) they aren't interested (the 2nd most likely outcome) or they find someone who wants to know more (the rarest outcome). Surprising as it may sound, I think all 3 of these plays a big part in strengthening their worldview.

1) The householder isn't home. Many of us have breathed a sigh of relief when we hit one of these. But here's something you may not have thought of. I believe that field service, along with meeting attendance and obedience to the Society, actually give the Witness the illusion of choice. By carrying out the ritual of the door to door work, along with the other commitments I mentioned, the Witness is actively electing for the only positive future they can believe in. As all ex-Witnesses know, the Society's ideology allows for only two possible outcomes: eternal life, or death when this system comes to an end. (Which could happen any second now...) So even when there's no one home, the Witness is doing what they must to choose life. To them, we're the ones who are condemned to a life or slavery. In order to remain in control, they must constantly reaffirm their choice over and over throughout their lives.

2) The householder is home, but not interested. I don't think most Witnesses are too bothered by this. As far as they're concerned, they did what they had to do in order to choose life. Yet when the householder gave that inner groan we've all seen as soon as they recognize the cheap suits and the handbags, the Witness knows they aren't really listening. As a Witness might say, their heart is closed to the Good News. Since the householder isn't really giving their message a chance, their refusal doesn't bother the Witness in the slightest. "They can't see how right I am if they won't give it a chance!" So the householder's rejection doesn't cause any doubt. And even if this outcome isn't immediately apparent when the person opens the door, the Witness just shrugs it off as the householder's loss. By contrast, they are reminded of how great it is to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses instead of being "like those worldly people." After all, the person had their chance for eternal life and chose badly. Right? Meanwhile, the Witness is still actively choosing life with each meeting they attend and every door they knock on. Like I said, the Witnesses feel they are in control and they are gladdened by their worldview even as they feel pity for poor slobs like us. They can't imagine backsliding and giving it all up.

3) The household is home and interested in their Truth! Here we have the Holy Grail. The Witness's time and effort has been appreciated, making them feel charitable and wise. This is a person who gets it. "See, I knew we weren't crazy!" They feel empowered and vindicated by this. If they begin a Bible study with the householder, this feeling is renewed every single time they so much as think about it. And soon, they'll have another new face (there are always new faces here or there) that shares in their absolutist worldview. The more new faces, the better. They feel like they are making progress toward their goal of eternal life--the goal they have chosen for themselves by serving the Watchtower Society.

These are the basics I wanted to get you thinking about. (Shortened, believe it or not, from the original) But here's the big part: We, the "lost sheep," actually play into their need for certitude. I think this explains why Witnesses behave so bizarrely around us. After all, most of them take it personally for no good reason and behave very badly. Their actions will obviously do more to push us away from their True Religion than pull us in. Yet they can't seem to help themselves. I think I can answer why in part 2.

IsaacJ

24

Brooklyn Bethel to be sold. Has anyone else heard this?

by nicolaou in

i'll bet it's already been posted and i missed it but if not, i just heard that brooklyn hq is to be sold over concerns for safety following the 9/11 attacks.

the news has come to me through an incredibly loyal jw sister.

i know her, she wouldn't repeat anything like this if she hadn't heard it from the kingdom hall or a circuit overseer.. anything to this?.

IsaacJS2

WHY? Doesn't Jehovah protect them from any harm that might come from a terrorist threat?

Shouldn't the WTS rely on and put their trust in their God? OR did Jehovah reveal to them a message to sell sell sell all property in Brooklyn?

Don't know if this has changed, but back in the day, the Society and our CO would tell us stories of angelic protection during field service from one side of their mouth while reminding us that Jehovah doesn't offer us any special protection from the other. We were even discouraged from spreading stories like that by our CO, despite the fact that the lesson that week included references to angels in the Nazi concentration camps. To counter this, he told of a story where a Witness Elder was literally blown up from the podium during a meeting in another country.

None of the Witnesses will look askance at any terrorist concerns. They'll favor whichever story maintains their beliefs under the circumstances. That's part of their delusion.

IsaacJ

5

My "Delusion of Certitude" theory about the WT

by IsaacJS2 in

jw
friends

i think my essay is finally nearing completion.

everytime i think that, i find something else to work on.

but one section talks about my belief that they have (what i call) the delusion of certitude.

IsaacJS2

Thanks for the positive vote. These are both parts of the bigger essay I'm working on which I think a lot of people will find useful. I'm still new to the forum, so I didn't want to step on any toes.

Someone already suggested I post the essay in the forum's file section, which I may also do if there's enough interest. I am have some concerns about doing that, but I thought I'd shorten a few of the best parts and post them.

IsaacJ

156

Is Atheism/Evolutionism Dangerous? Questions for Unbelievers

by Perry in

does the belief that there is no all-loving diety in which to be accountable to make it easier or harder to treat and judge others they way that you want to be treated and judged?.

since evolution supposes that life and ultimately man who is at the top of the chain got here through a process of the fittest dominating and killing off the weaker, and since most modern evolutionists in democracies no longer think that this is good to practice, how do you deal with the fact that you are a living contradiction of your own belief since you pronounce the same thing both good and bad?

.

IsaacJS2

Since I don't appreciate some of the comments I've seen, I will post a few links for those who are interested in learning about the confusion of Social Darwinism with evolution and then I'll leave you guys to fight it out without me. I probably won't see any replies to this or my earlier post because I honestly don't care to follow this debate any further.

Prejudice just plain bums me out. As ex-Witnesses, I so thought we were smarter than this. My bad.

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_is_the_foundation_of_an_immoral_worldview

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheistsworship/a/WorshipScience.htm

And to comment on a few of the false beliefs about atheists some seem to have, here's a fair start.

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutatheism/p/atheism101.htm

With that, I'm outta here.

IsaacJ

156

Is Atheism/Evolutionism Dangerous? Questions for Unbelievers

by Perry in

does the belief that there is no all-loving diety in which to be accountable to make it easier or harder to treat and judge others they way that you want to be treated and judged?.

since evolution supposes that life and ultimately man who is at the top of the chain got here through a process of the fittest dominating and killing off the weaker, and since most modern evolutionists in democracies no longer think that this is good to practice, how do you deal with the fact that you are a living contradiction of your own belief since you pronounce the same thing both good and bad?

.

IsaacJS2

Sorry if I'm repeating what anyone else said. There are already a lot of posts and I just found this thread. Sorry it's so long, but a lot of stuff has already been posted that I want to talk about.

I must admit that I've always been confused by this sort of reasoning. Evolution is a scientific theory. It is not a moral imperative or a way of life. It is something that--as far as scientists can tell--happened and is still happening. It is no more dangerous than theories on meteorology or math by itself. Theories on physics can tell us how to build an atom bomb or a power plant that provides eletricity to millions of people or an engine that will take us to Jupiter and back. Modern medicine can be used to cure millions of people with diseases or give diseases to millions. Like any form of knowledge, it is neutral in and of itself. Again, none of these sciences have anything to do with any sort of moral philosophy.

I really wish people would lay off the Nazi stuff, BTW. Some even think the Nazis were atheists who believed fanatically in evolution and claim that all atheists must lack a moral center. Perhaps that's why someone mentioned them here. But nothing could be further from the truth on all counts. (I would rather not know it if anyone here really thinks this way)

The Nazis started out as the political/paramilitary wing of a German cult which believed in a form Arianism. They believed that they descended from a race of supermen that descended from Heaven. They were supposedly giant in size and great in supernatural power. They blamed the Jews, and other "lesser" races, for robbing them of this great heritage. Their mistreatment of these races was more about revenge than anything else. In their belief system, the Jews somehow conspired to dilute their race until they lost all their great powers. But the Nazis believed that some remnant of this superior heritage remained in certain people, and so they began a breeding program to restore themselves to their former glory through selective breeding. This was called the Labensborne (spelling?) program.

It was based on occult superstition, not evolution or other science. They believed that certain features--such as hair/eye color and the size of one's head--indicated that a person had some of this ancient Arian heritage still in them. The idea was to breed these people together and to slowly strain out all the impurities over many generations. It is true that they used a kind of Social Darwinism on the populace, but this was not born from evolutionary theory. It was actually part of Nazism itself. They simply detested weakness and thought that anyone who was weak must be too contaminated by the "lower" races to be of use. They eliminated them from the gene pool to avoid the risk of further contamination. Science had very little to do with any of it beyond the basic principles of heredity.

I have to point out that your question to we unbelievers is less than fair. Some atheists don't even accept the theory of evolution. I think some believers pigeonhole atheists into some very negative (and offensive) stereotypes. Asking why atheists don't embrace the survival of the fittest doctrine to be consistent with our "beliefs" is to suggest we are mindless automatons and fanatical monsters. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you didn't see it that way, of course, but I think this needs pointing out. Evolutionists don't "believe" in evolution as a set of moral principles, nor should anyone. I accept it as a scientific theory, and that's it. Evolution is not a philosophy or a religion of any sort and neither is science. To me, you seem to be objectifying us and forgetting we are people just like you.

If I started listing every line in the Bible that would be considered immoral by today's standards and asked why Christians and Jews didn't obey them to the letter, it would pretty much be a similar situation. Surely you would take offense. You have a brain and a conscience just like we do. You are not a fanatic or an automaton. I honestly think you are making the same mistake I would be if I thought this way. But I know better.

Just remember that atheists are human, and I think common sense will take care of the rest. Perhaps you should back up a few steps and start another thread asking why atheists believe (and don't believe) as we do. Evolution is another topic altogether. After this post, I'll probably just leave this topic alone. Hope I didn't upset anyone, and I'm not mad. I'm assuming the points were made without consideration of their implications and nothing more.

Peace.

IsaacJ

8

Assembly Time

by Sasha in

hope this has not already been covered: any one know what the gist of the jw assemblies this season?.

titles, subjects, etc.. i heard one was that false relegion was going to collapse at any moment.

but, of course, that's been being said for quite a while.

IsaacJS2

One thing of interest (hope no one mentioned it here already) is that they apparently allow non-Witnesses to go to the assemblies. At least, that's what I was told the last time a Witness in-law felt the need to preach at me.

They even had brochures they handed out at the last assembly inviting "worldly" people to come. I suppose anyone could pop in just to see what sort of weirdness was going on at present. Personally, I always found the assemblies incredibly boring. I never understood why everyone got so happy about it even when I was a full blown devotee. It was torture. We always ended up at Veteran's Stadium because it was the cheapest they could get, which left us out in the sun for 3 solid days in our meetings clothes with no protection.

Every single year, between 5-12 people died due to the sun and heat!!! When I found this out, I was shocked. The others just said that is was mostly the very young, old, or sick...whatever. So I guess that made it alright. Whatever the Society was willing to pay for, huh? Sheesh. Now that I know how much cash the Society has, all I can say is that this is truly pathetic.

IsaacJ

5

My "Delusion of Certitude" theory about the WT

by IsaacJS2 in

jw
friends

i think my essay is finally nearing completion.

everytime i think that, i find something else to work on.

but one section talks about my belief that they have (what i call) the delusion of certitude.

IsaacJS2

I think my essay is finally nearing completion. Everytime I think that, I find something else to work on. But one section talks about my belief that they have (what I call) the delusion of certitude. I was thinking about adding the shortest possible version of that to the Best Of section, and maybe the short article about how the WT's biblical "proof" of their religious superiority is crap. They might be useful to other ex-Witnesses, new or old.

The one that debunks their attempt to prove themselves as the "True Religion" using the Bible can be great to have whenever a Witness relative or the like throws that one at you. I think some of them honestly believe the Bible proves they are the right religion.

The other explains my theory about why they act so strangely towards us when we leave the Society. I'm sure everyone has seen this weirdness and thought it bizarre. I offer an explanation that I think makes sense. Hopefully, I can shorten it enough to be more suitable to the forum.

I'm new, so I thought I would ask if that's okay?

IsaacJ

45

Elder quits meetings

by buffalosrfree in

jw
friends

i received good news from my daughter, it was amazing to her, but she informed me that she met an old friend from a congregations we attended 10 years ago, and the upshot was that the friends partents no longer attended meetings.

he her dad had been an elder the last i talked with him, he had left the congregation we were in due to the attitude of other elders there, went to a new congregation and the last i heard was very happy there.

we had had conversations about various aspects of the supposed truth and he always tried to counsel me about the troooth as spouted by the pharasies then.

IsaacJS2

Mystla

As long as the secular VS religious war doesn't catch the whole forum blazing, it's fine. But some on both sides can see the mere presence of the other as an affront and slip in little insults here and there when they can. Sadly, there are assumptions out there about atheists that we really don't need to hear, and a few have already been made in this thread. (Not that I've never met an atheist who wasn't just as bad toward believers) I haven't responded to all of them and I'm not really planning to.

I'm new, and didn't want to see the forum wasted by that sorta attitude. Usually, someone soon declares war after that and it all goes up in flames. I prefer to have a multitude of viewpoints here--in a war, one side usually loses, and then they leave. Even if my side wins, that could get boring. There are plenty of atheist forums already on the web.

BTW, did you know that there are movies planned for the first 6 Covenant novels? A Third Chronicles of Thomas Covenant has already begun. I have book 1. Donaldson is writing 3 more, making it a massive quadrilogy. Don't know how they'll turn Covenant into an acceptable on screen personality unless they change it pretty badly though. We'll see.

IsaacJ