Posts by Doug Mason

23

The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

by Doug Mason in

i want to ask a couple of serious questions.

hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.. .

1. if we ignore the writings by paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?.

Doug Mason

I want to ask a couple of serious questions. Hopefully the number of minds will clarify this for me.

1. If we ignore the writings by Paul and those attributed to him, would we get the idea that the death of Jesus was intended to be a substitutionary payment for another person's sin?

2. When "Paul" writes that Christ died for our sins, is he alluding to the Passover or to the Day of Atonment (Yom Kippur)?

Doug

12

Giving the Trinity Doctrine the Coup-De-Grace!

by wannabe in

it is the one that this world doesn't know, that must request of the father, to give the helper, the holy spirit; the spirit of the truth; then jesus tells us that the world cannot receive of the holy spirit, they neither see him or know him.

" {1 john 5:19 nlt}.

" {1 john 2:27 nlt}.

Doug Mason

To reason on Christology, climb outside the contents of the Bible and look on it from outside, as you would look at any piece of literature.

Consider the motives of each writer, their individual contexts, the process taken to decide which writing was considered "orthodox", the external religious politics, the external secular politics, and so on. Search for the reason a particular piece was selected and similarly the reason a piece was rejected.

Apply these factors when considering the doctrine of the nature of God. In particular, trace the direct influence of various emperors of the eastern Roman Empire in defining orthodoxy, and how the official state church followed those edicts.

The emperors thought they would bring peace to the riven Christian Church. They did not; all they achieved was stifling of debate of the subject.

The discussions carried on here are sedate. During the 5th and 6th centuries, Christians murdered, tortured and humiliated other Christians because they had a different Christology. These murderous exploits decimated the eastern church and opened the way for Islam; it also caused an eastern religion to be limited to its European foothold.

Today we can respect that others have the right to their views.

Doug

26

Why would a 1st Century nobody want to believe a Jesus story?

by Terry in

first century.. rome.

jerusalem.

galilee.. low tech world.. roman armies marching always into battles.. sons and fathers conscripted to fight and die.. taxes.. morning to sundown scraping out a meager living.. .

Doug Mason

Terry,

The Christianity that ultimately prospered was the version taught by Paul, who was based at Antioch. His teachings were aligned with Hellenistic philosophy, so those teachings were more acceptable to the populace than were the strict legalistic version of the larger Jewish Christian movement under James and Peter, based at Jerusalem. These Christian groups were at odds with one another, and with other Christian sects. The Jerusalem group evolved into groups such as the Ebionites.

Paul's story was a philosophy about the impact of the Christ, whereas the Jewish Christians were practical, albeit very legalistic, and were about Jesus. The Greek and Roman philosophers had much less difficulty accepting Paul's views; they found the Jewish ritual requirements, such as circumcision, too difficult to accept.

To gain some idea of the tension between Paul's version and the Jerusalem version of Christianity, you only need read Paul's invective in his early letter, to the Galatians, and also his harsh words about the Jews' Law in Romans. You can imagine how well that went down with the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem!

In time, Paul's version gained the support of the emperors of the Eastern Roman empire, who saw political value in recognising Paul's version, and in this way they inadvertently defined Christian orthodoxy. This officially sanctioned state church determined which were the writings acceptable as their New Testament canon, and we can see their bias, as well as their inconsistencies.

Examination of the time shows why the Gentile Christians succeeded, while the message of the Jewish Christians, who were the rightful heirs, was almost obliterated.

Doug

14

How did the idea that Jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years develop?

by Doug Mason in

i previously asked about the evolution in the application of daniel 9 to the christian's jesus.. naturally, leo generously provided the answer, and i am deeply greatful to her for her help!.

she also pointed out that the "solution" that jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years is circular reasoning.

that is, we know that the prophecy is correct and that jesus' ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years because that is what the prophecy had predicted.

Doug Mason

Once more I express my gratitude to Leolaia for her knowledge and her willingness to share it so freely. Thank you so much.

---------------

In his book, "Jesus for the Non-Religious" (published 2007), John Shelby Spong connects Jesus with Yom Kippur, saying that when Paul wrote "Christ died for our sins", he was relating Christ's death to the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur, in September) rather than to the Passover (in Spring).

Spong also writes: "By the time the Fourth Gospel was written, the connection between Jesus and the sacrifice of Yom Kippur had become complete and the interpretation of Jesus under the symbols of Yom Kippur was fixed". (see his pages 159-169)

Doug

14

How did the idea that Jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years develop?

by Doug Mason in

i previously asked about the evolution in the application of daniel 9 to the christian's jesus.. naturally, leo generously provided the answer, and i am deeply greatful to her for her help!.

she also pointed out that the "solution" that jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years is circular reasoning.

that is, we know that the prophecy is correct and that jesus' ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years because that is what the prophecy had predicted.

Doug Mason

I previously asked about the evolution in the application of Daniel 9 to the Christian's Jesus.

Naturally, Leo generously provided the answer, and I am deeply greatful to her for her help!

She also pointed out that the "solution" that Jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years is circular reasoning. That is, we know that the prophecy is correct and that Jesus' ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years because that is what the prophecy had predicted. And around and around we go.

So am I correct in saying that the idea that Jesus' ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years was created simultaneously with that developing application of Daniel's prophecy to Jesus?

Is there any documentary evidence that tracks the development of the idea that Jesus' ministry lasted for only 3 1/2 years?

Doug

29

How does GOVERNING BODY receive "NEW LIGHT"?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

just how does the governing body of jehovah's witnesses receive their "insight" or "understanding" of the bible, in order to publish this "spiritual food at the proper time" in their watchtower and awake magazines and all their books?.

let's find out -- from their own publications -- exactly how this happens:.

"spirits of the dead" brochure (1991), page 18:.

Doug Mason

Maybe they receive New Light from their Legal Eagles?

Maybe they receive New Light when someone (possible even a non-anointed one) writes a book or article for them?

As a very small child, I saw people get in touch with the spirit world. They put an upturned glass on a polished table ... and ... and ... And it worked! Frightening and terrifying, even to this day the memory scares me.

Doug

8

Who first applied Daniel 9 to the Christian's Jesus?

by Doug Mason in

i am seeking information, not an exegesis or an eisegesis.. .

"somewhere", i came across a statement identifying the person/group that first interpreted the 70 "sevens" of daniel 9 as identifying the year of jesus' appearance as the "messiah".. .

try as i might, i cannot relocate that information, so i am hoping someone can point me to authoritative sources that identify the person/group who first provided that interpretation, and hopefully the contemporary context.. .

Doug Mason

Leolaia,

I cannot thank you enough for your wonderful knowledge and above that, your generosity in freely sharing it with us all.

Doug

8

Who first applied Daniel 9 to the Christian's Jesus?

by Doug Mason in

i am seeking information, not an exegesis or an eisegesis.. .

"somewhere", i came across a statement identifying the person/group that first interpreted the 70 "sevens" of daniel 9 as identifying the year of jesus' appearance as the "messiah".. .

try as i might, i cannot relocate that information, so i am hoping someone can point me to authoritative sources that identify the person/group who first provided that interpretation, and hopefully the contemporary context.. .

Doug Mason

Wobble,

I searched Google.Books.Com for these expressions:

70 weeks prophecy in early Jewish interpretation

70 weeks prophecy in early Christian interpretation

Clement 70 weeks

Tertullian 70 weeks.

I decided to look at books, as I was interested in locating scholarly works, not wild exegetical fancies, which are so easily found by searching the www. Going by the plethora of hits, the prophecy of the "70 weeks/sevens" must be the most abused prophecy in the Bible, with minds far greater than ours providing their wildly different explanations.

I was not interested in assessing the validity of their interpretations, rather I was simply interested in finding documented evidences of what the Jews and Christians wrote at the time leading up to the early Church Fathers.

If you get a chance to plough through the pages that are available, I would be interested in your thoughts.

Doug

8

Who first applied Daniel 9 to the Christian's Jesus?

by Doug Mason in

i am seeking information, not an exegesis or an eisegesis.. .

"somewhere", i came across a statement identifying the person/group that first interpreted the 70 "sevens" of daniel 9 as identifying the year of jesus' appearance as the "messiah".. .

try as i might, i cannot relocate that information, so i am hoping someone can point me to authoritative sources that identify the person/group who first provided that interpretation, and hopefully the contemporary context.. .

Doug Mason

Wobble,

I have spent several weeks preparing a critique of the 9th chapter of the WTS book, "The Bible- God's Word or Man's?", which focuses on the seventy "sevens" at Daniel 9. Maybe there is some way we could chat? Send me a pm if you are interested with contact by email.

The thought behind my question is that if the 70 "sevens" at Daniel 9 is such convincing proof of the Christian's Jesus, can I find that interpretation in the Scriptures? If not, where did the idea start? Is it in the writings of the Essenes, Gnostics, Ebionites or the early Church Fathers? Or is it an invention from as late as the 19th century?

Another question: How does the WTS work out that Jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years?

Doug

29

How does GOVERNING BODY receive "NEW LIGHT"?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

just how does the governing body of jehovah's witnesses receive their "insight" or "understanding" of the bible, in order to publish this "spiritual food at the proper time" in their watchtower and awake magazines and all their books?.

let's find out -- from their own publications -- exactly how this happens:.

"spirits of the dead" brochure (1991), page 18:.

Doug Mason

I wonder what would happen when people decide that the book of Acts was written as historical revisionism some 40 years after Paul died, and that the "Council at Jerusalem" was a creation of the writer's imagination, and that it never happened!

"Bang!" would go their "Governing Body" parody, and "Poof!" would go their "no blood" drama.

And this is not beyond the probable situation.

Doug