Posts by glenster

11

The Florida Concentration Camp for little Boys .. At least 50 bodies found

by fulltimestudent in

this is a terrible story, as i believe from other reports that places like this were common in the usa.

(as well as, the uk, ireland, canada, australia and god knows where else).you can only wonder how no-one else in authority knew about this.

i think they did, and the authorities of that time were prepared to do nothing and say nothing.. web reference : http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-concentration-camp-for-little-boys-dark-secrets-unearthed-in-kkk-county-8518009.html.

glenster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Demiurge1000/Arthur_G._Dozier_School_for_Boys

2

Charles Manson--old taped interviews may reveal more murders

by glenster in

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/charles-manson-more-murders-interview-lawyer-bill-boyd_n_2623690.html.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/manson/1.html.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19927_6-movies-that-predicted-disasters-with-eerie-accuracy.html.

glenster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgX5VY_gZm4

2

Charles Manson--old taped interviews may reveal more murders

by glenster in

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/charles-manson-more-murders-interview-lawyer-bill-boyd_n_2623690.html.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/manson/1.html.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19927_6-movies-that-predicted-disasters-with-eerie-accuracy.html.

glenster

P.S.:

Another point to consider is that mentally ill people can be more erratic if
they're on street drugs. Charles was on street drugs around the time of the
Manson family murders and wasn't on them during the prison interviews he's given
since then, which could leave a misleading impression of how sane he was during
the murders.

One happy note:

"Cease to Exist"/"Never Learn Not to Love"

The Manson family trashed Dennis Wilson's uninsured sports car, his house,
Dennis had to pay to get many treated for venereal disease, etc., so I guess
taking "Cease to Exist" (changed to "Never Learn Not to Love" for The Beach Boys
"20/20" album) was meant as reimbursement.

"Manson explicitly told Wilson that the words were not to be altered, though
he could do what he liked with the music (in the event, the basic melody was
largely unchanged). When 'Never Learn Not to Love' was first released by the
Beach Boys as a B-side in late 1968, and credited solely to Dennis Wilson—with
altered lyrics and a new bridge—Manson threatened Wilson with murder. According
to Brian's collaborator Van Dyke Parks, when Manson once showed up to make good
on his threat, Dennis beat him up. The Manson incident gave everyone a scare in
the Beach Boys' camp—especially after his well-known crimes came to light."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Learn_Not_to_Love
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=5814.0

2

Charles Manson--old taped interviews may reveal more murders

by glenster in

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/charles-manson-more-murders-interview-lawyer-bill-boyd_n_2623690.html.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/manson/1.html.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19927_6-movies-that-predicted-disasters-with-eerie-accuracy.html.

glenster

Bill Boyd LAPD recordings could shed new light on the murders

"He told me about a bunch of other people Manson had killed," Boyd
said in an interview recorded about his client Charles "Tex" Watson.
"He was extremely candid."

Boyd died in 2009 and Watson is serving life for obeying Manson's
commands to kill actress Sharon Tate and her four house guests as
well as the separate murder of a married couple in another part of
Los Angeles later in August 1969.

Manson remains imprisoned for life for ordering the killings that
he called "Helter Skelter," a twisted homage to The Beatles song of
the same name.

Unlike the seven known victims killed by Watson and other disci-
ples, Boyd recalls his client telling him there were people that
Manson killed on his own.

"This was Manson killing other people," Boyd says during the re-
corded interview with an author. Watson didn't implicate himself
in any of these other alleged acts, Boyd said.

Boyd possessed more than 20 hours of conversations with Watson taped more than
four decades ago. The Los Angeles Police Department has sued to get access to
these tapes, which became property of Boyd's Texas law firm that was in bank-
ruptcy court in 2012.

Watson has tried to stop a judge from releasing his talks with Boyd to the
LAPD, writing in court documents that it would be a "public dishonor" to people
"emotionally attached" to the Manson family murders.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/charles-manson-more-murders-interview-lawyer-bill-boyd_n_2623690.html

Charles Manson

Charles had some problems as a child. His mother was not around all the time,
and his original father is unknown--a later father gave Charles his last name.
He stayed with a conservative Christian family presided over by a grandmother.
I don't know how strict she was about punishment, but it's a safe guess it came
up regarding Charles.

He might have wanted to get away from all that, but I get the idea listening
to him talk that he's mentally ill, if sane enough to stand trial. I think that
had more to do with why he convinced himself not to struggle to adjust to main-
stream society than the upbringing he had. He would have often been considered
a loose cannon and not accepted socially, and he knows that, and didn't want to
tough that out to go to school and get a job.

A somewhat mentally ill person may be responsible to others and be a lot more
likely to be victimized than victimize others, if a higher percentage of them
than sane people victimize others. Charles was at least bright and sane enough
to be responsible for his choices.

Somewhat mentally ill people may go through school and find their niche like
other unconventional people, but early on Manson saw what he thought was an eas-
ier way out with crime. He then became committed to sociopathic traits and all
the more irresponsible to the people of any one place, which he didn't stay in
very long.

Even bigger organized crime would have felt he was too undependable and risky
to hire, so he went for the life of crime and under the table money on his own
his whole adult life. Whenever he got out of prison he went right back to it.

I'd characterize organized crime as about money no matter what--extortion,
theft, harming and even murdering people, and organized crime people don't
care. It's like they're just watching it on TV and they're just thinking of the
money they're coming into.

This seems to be Charles outlook, and the outlook he encouraged in followers
for his own mini-organized crime groups. A lot of his philosophy seem to be
meant to rationalize that there's no right or wrong in what he did, or led oth-
ers to do, and the problem is with everything else: society, political leaders,
everyone who put him in jail, etc.--the organized crime outlook except he'd have
trouble socially with the organization part.

He seems allergic to the outlook that to be unethical is to overindulge the
self at others' unnecessary harm, unfair regard or treatment as by lying, steal-
ing, murdering, bigotry, etc., and prone to prefer an egocentric outlook of sur-
vival no matter what then telling whatever lie to get away with it.

Someone anti-social who figures crime is their only option to survive probably
belongs in either a home or jail, and jail is the one of the two to best protect
the rest of us from him, and it seems to be where he wants to be taken care of
when he isn't outside being a criminal, so I'd say he's where he ought to be.

I wouldn't say he "brainwashed" followers since it could cause someone to
imagine science fiction ideas of how that could happen that aren't true.

I'd compare it to how organized crime leaders can exploit greed to cause peo-
ple to hurt and kill and not care, or to how Hitler used pseudo-science propa-
ganda about inferior races and eliminating them to improve society (bastardized
Darwinism) to get followers to consider others as less human and murder for
them. Crime leaders agree to tell the same lies, and get followers on the same
page, to get away with their crimes. The one(s) in charge of designing amoral
group outlooks and presiding over the murders is responsible.

(I'd also compare it to how the Jehovah's Witnesses leaders are the only ones
who mislead millions of people to think the Bible requires them to refuse the
medical use of blood/major blood products for themselves or their children even
unto pain of death. The JWs leaders manage to get off the hook due to freedom
of religion and because people are free to choose medical care. But all the
evidence shows that the JWs leaders' policies about it, like their efforts to
feign exclusiveness generally, are shown evidentially as deception as clear as
Peter Popoff's radio receiver scam, so it shouldn't qualify as belief on their
part.)

One attempted defense of Manson claims he just told followers to do something
"witchy" in the Tate residence, but that still wouldn't explain his approval of
the murders of the residents (and murders of Crowe, Hinman, LaBianca residents,
and Shea), and not going to the police about it, afterward, or all the testimony
that points to guilt and Manson lying about it.

guilty:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/manson/1.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19927_6-movies-that-predicted-disasters-with-eerie-accuracy.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19927_6-movies-that-predicted-disasters-with-eerie-accuracy_p2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_%28book%29
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8IaePIyQww

not guilty (well-documented but naive in interpretations):
"The Manson File: Myth and Reality of an Outlaw Shaman" by Nikolas Schreck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolas_Schreck

Nikolas Schreck

"The Manson File: Myth and Reality of an Outlaw Shaman" by Nikolas Schreck -
Book Review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytlPnGfz6wg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g0vHuD8fDE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctt7PiAfqOA

He's done a lot of clerical work collating info on Manson but has poor judg-
ment in interpreting things. He doesn't think Manson indicated racism and that
Squeaky Fromme is a woman of special integrity, for example.

He interprets the Tate LaBianca murders as by Watson, not ordered by Manson,
due to a drug deal that went wrong:

Jay Sebring was allegedly popularly known in LA as a front man for Mafia
drugs. Tex Watson went to the Tate residence for over $10,000 in drugs and Se-
bring told him to go to the LaBianca's for the LSD. Rosemary LaBianca was al-
legedly a major drug dealer whom Tex had been buying his LSD from. She made Tex
angry by stiffing him and having Sebring sell Tex the drugs at a higher price
(and she was allegedly in debt to the Mafia), then Sebring told Watson to go
back to her (because Watson didn't want to pay a higher price?). Sebring at-
tacked Watson, Watson killed Sebring and Tate, took drugs except LSD to pay off
the Straight Satans biker gang about the bad mescaline deal at the ranch.

(Hinman had allegedly previously made and sold bad mescaline--"strychnine"--to
Bobby Beausoleil who sold it to the Straight Satans motorcycle gang, one of whom
was a friend of Manson, who wanted their money back. Hinman wouldn't pay so
Beausoleil killed him and put a Black Panther paw symbol in blood on the wall to
imply the Panthers committed the murder. Note: the drug deal aspect was added
by Bobby 12 years after the murder and Susan Atkins stated before her death that
Bobby never told her the reason he took her to the meeting with Hinman had to do
with drugs but just to collect money Manson claimed was owed to the Manson fam-
ily.)
http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/oa_19811100.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Beausoleil

Schreck has it that Watson and the rest of the Manson gang left the others
tied up and went back to the ranch. Manson took the others back to the Tate
residence to get rid of fingerprints, kill the others, and Susan Atkins left
messages on the wall possibly to make the paw symbol Bobby Beausoleil put on the
wall after murdering Hinman seem related and imply Bobby was innocent, then went
back to the ranch. Manson took them to the LaBianca residence for the drugs,
tied up the LaBianca's, and Manson left them there telling them to get the LaBi-
anca's little black book of Mafia deal information. The LaBianca's didn't co-
operate so Tex Watson killed them.

Schreck says Manson didn't say these things at the trial because the Mafia
wanted silence (though I think the Mafia would have considered him to much of a
risk to be a member) and the others acted like the cult members Bugliosi de-
scribed for the Mafia and FBI on the promise they'd be granted immunity, and
Bugliosi used the Helter Skelter idea because the Mafia (and FBI) wanted him to
do it. Another reason is that a trial about drugs would have been bad PR for
many LA celebrities.

Yish.

Schrek inteprets Bugliosi of being unrealistic for saying Manson brainwashed
his followers with LSD to obey him as if you could give someone LSD then program
them like a robot. This is a false dilemma by Schreck (see above).

Schreck interprets Bugliosi as unrealistic in giving Manson's motive as Helter
Skelter--motivating African Americans to have race riots, etc. But Manson is
known to have been amoral, a misogynist, to have considered African Americans
as on a lower level, interracial sex as improper, etc. (Dennis Wilson's friend
Gregg Jakobson), so no stranger to needlessly harmful groundless beliefs, and
proposed the Helter Skelter ideas shortly after the assassination of MLK (Paul
Alan Watkins), which brought national discussion of racial tension, some of
which no doubt angered Manson, to the fore. (Hitler's pseudoscience about race
was no substantiation for the murders he had others commit, either, but Hitler
was a hero to Charlie.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxMh5OIL1qE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_Jakobson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Watkins_%28Manson_Family%29
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915134,00.html

Lynette "Sqeaky" Fromme and Manson family women testified to the racist out-
looks they learned:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-krassner/my-acid-trip-with-squeaky_b_252681.html

"As evidence for this motive, several witnesses testified to Manson's state-
ments regarding 'Helter Skelter' and his obsession with the Beatles' music, and
the individuals convicted for the murders have testified at various parole hear-
ings that this was the motive (e.g., Leslie Van Houten testified to this at her
1993 parole hearing).

"In later years, prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi stated that he believed the mur-
ders had numerous, disparate motives, all of which served to benefit Manson. The
home where Tate and Polanski were living with friends was known to Manson and
Watson, who had been there once and knew where it was, and Manson knew that
wealthy, famous people lived there. One former tenant of the home was Terry Mel-
cher, Doris Day's son, a record producer who Manson believed had made promises
to him which had never materialized. Prosecutor Bugliosi suggested Manson may
have very briefly encountered the eventual murder victims when he went to the
home looking for Melcher and was reportedly turned away by Sharon Tate's photo-
grapher."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Atkins#Motivation

Shreck's stance has it that Manson and his female followers, in and out of the
trial, are supposed to have pretended to be what Bugliosi accused them of being,
condemning themselves as a murderous group, instead of blaming Watson, confess-
ing about any Mafia persuasions, and asking for an FBI relocation program, and
they kept the secret from subsequent parole boards (?!). It seems very unlike-
ly--more like unsubstantiated rumor mongering to create a distinctive explana-
tion to sell a book (ironically what Schreck accuses Bugliosi of doing).

(Schreck also intends support for his Bugliosi/Mafia connection by faulting
Bugliosi for not blaming the Mafia for the death of JFK.)
http://frankwarner.typepad.com/free_frank_warner/2009/01/kennedy-assassination-magic-bullet-theory-versus-single-bullet-fact.html
http://atwaatwar.wordpress.com/tag/nikolas-schreck/
http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/questions-on-the-drug-motive.4997/
http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/nikolas-shreck-book-blames-voys-dealing-not-jays.4845/

Bill Scanlon Murphy, once a session man for the Beach Boys, supposedly in-
tended to put out a book with the same revisionist history of Manson in the late
1990's but didn't get it published. Shreck seems to have investigated to try to
support the idea.
Scotland On Sunday 07/02/1999
http://www.compulsiononline.com/people_manson.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNV8qJJEyhI

Charles Manson "Lie"
This is an album he recorded in the late 1960's. He shows some songwriting
and singing ability, but knowing his amoral outlook colors the lyrics unfavor-
ably.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCE38FC6E4A1B9912
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie:_The_Love_and_Terror_Cult

8

Alvin Lee from Ten Years After, Woodstock fame passes

by designs in

just 68, he and the band lit up woodstock with i'm going home, one of the great songs to drive across the desert at sunrise.

i'd love to change the world had great vision and social commentary.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzruqatucpu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw5m5xljdci.

glenster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx9xxlRLhIY

15

The Euthyphro dilemma destroys belief that the Bible is inerrant

by yadda yadda 2 in

divine command theory allows christians to rationalise that unconscionable actions caused or commanded by the biblical god are morally justifiable.

for example, god commands the genocidal killing of whole national groups such as the amalekites, including killing all the children (1 samuel 15).. but by taking the side of the euthyphro dilemma that there is an objective, anterior morality that even god is subject to, one is forced to concede that such atrocities could not have been commanded or sanctioned by a perfectly moral god.

therefore, any passages of scripture where morally unacceptable actions are attributed to god in ancient scripture cannot be believed.

glenster

"Glenstar, I am not claiming that the Euthyphro dilemma proves God's existence
or not;"

I noticed that I didn't have to bother with that aspect when I looked at it
later but it was too late to edit.

I just mean basically there isn't a moral obligation to not believe in God.
Simply, it depends what stipulations you add, including regard of the OT, and if
you concede prerogative can include that He'd be above strictly interpersonal
human concerns.

As far as death goes, the concept already has everyone die of all ages, in-
nocent or guilty, as does life generally (as the prerogative of people accepts
the taking of the life of animals), not just death of ones guilty on interper-
sonal human terms or it's capricious. So as nasty as the nastiest conservative
interpretations of OT examples may seem (such as regarding children in holy
war), the conservative interpretation can accept it.

"theodicy": the easiest solution to me is to reject "all-beneficence" as men-
tioned above. It's not difficult scripturally since it could never have been a
blanket rule but a reference to whatever good regarding people as interpreted.

(PS: "glenstar"? lol. The only other one who called me that was larsinger.)

15

The Euthyphro dilemma destroys belief that the Bible is inerrant

by yadda yadda 2 in

divine command theory allows christians to rationalise that unconscionable actions caused or commanded by the biblical god are morally justifiable.

for example, god commands the genocidal killing of whole national groups such as the amalekites, including killing all the children (1 samuel 15).. but by taking the side of the euthyphro dilemma that there is an objective, anterior morality that even god is subject to, one is forced to concede that such atrocities could not have been commanded or sanctioned by a perfectly moral god.

therefore, any passages of scripture where morally unacceptable actions are attributed to god in ancient scripture cannot be believed.

glenster

The Euthyphro dilemma involves wondering if God is considered all good and
just from the human perspective or because He declares it regardless.

The idea of God and justice is God's prerogative. He owns it all and can do
what he wants with it, including giving people whatever length of life, if any,
and quality of life. People are lesser beings to God similar to animals being
lesser beings than people but moreso. God has the prerogative to take human
life, or have it taken, as people generally assume the prerogative to take ani-
mal life, or use food or clothes from those who did, without judging those who
do as immoral. A person has the choice to abide or not.

To be unethical from human standards is to overindulge the self at another's
unnecessary hurt or expense, unfair regard or treatment, as by lying, stealing,
murder, bigotry, etc.

If He were all-beneficent from the human perspective, we'd all live in heaven-
ly circumstances forever and we don't. The choice to believe in Him or not is
analagous to the choice to believe in life or not, grateful for the chance at
life and what good is in it. Afterlife can be a sweetener on the deal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

OT examples: depends on whether a conservative or liberal interpretation is
used. I'd recommend the liberal stances (regard of the OT, evolution, LGBT
people, separation of church and state short of proof of a God that wants
different, etc.) which should cover most objections.

The Euthyphro dilemma doesn't prove God doesn't exist since the above is
assumed for an Abrahamic God--God isn't all-beneficent from the human perspec-
tive or restricted to interpersonal human standards of prerogative--and the
basic God concept can adapt to new information and liberal stances when adding
specifics beyond that.

The Euthyphro dilemma doesn't prove God doesn't exist more basically because
the most basic concept doesn't come with a name, interventions, or character
determinants. It depends what specifics you add.

47

Is this a religion run by PSYCOPATHS?

by Terry in

glibness/superficial charmgrandiose sense of self-worthpathological lyingconning/manipulativelack of remorse or guiltshallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)callousness; lack of empathyfailure to accept responsibility for own actionsthe hare psychopathy checklist-revised by robert d. hare, 1991. multi-health systems, 908 niagara falls blvd, north tonawanda, new york, usa, 14120-2060. psycopaths do not feel empathy but learn to imitate those who do.

psychopaths don't even understand charity.. .

i was thinking today how much psycopathy is reflected in the governing body leadership and especially manifested in policy.. jehovah's witnesses are not led by people devoted to charity, benevolence, outreach or social provision for those less fortunate which.

glenster

Crime leaders are sociopaths but not psychopaths if you add the stipulation
that the psychopath is incapable of being otherwise so not culpable, that
they're not making a choice but suffering from a condition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

19

For anyone unsure as to whether JW's are a cult..please read...

by lostinnj83 in

if the informaiton i am posting is redundant or has been posted, please forgive me.. i know we are all at different stages of this journey.

for me i am still "in" but working towards being out and leaving.

any one in this position or who has been here knows how diffucult of a time this can be.

glenster

If your leaders' substantiation for exclusiveness (such as being the leader of
a literal 144,000) is like the radio receiver in Popoff's ear, and they require
needless harm (such as refusal of life sustaining medical care), you may be in a
cult.

"Helter Skelter," 1976
1 hr., 53 min., 30 sec.: Revelation chapter 9
1 hr., 58 min., 50 sec.: 144,000--the Manson family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8IaePIyQww
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_%28Manson_scenario%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_%281976_film%29

9

TITANIC II Set to Sail in 2016

by Quendi in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:trackmoves /> <w:trackformatting /> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:donotpromoteqf /> <w:lidthemeother>en-us</w:lidthemeother> <w:lidthemeasian>x-none</w:lidthemeasian> <w:lidthemecomplexscript>x-none</w:lidthemecomplexscript> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> <w:splitpgbreakandparamark /> <w:enableopentypekerning /> <w:dontflipmirrorindents /> <w:overridetablestylehps /> </w:compatibility> <m:mathpr> <m:mathfont m:val="cambria math" /> <m:brkbin m:val="before" /> <m:brkbinsub m:val="--" /> <m:smallfrac m:val="off" /> <m:dispdef /> <m:lmargin m:val="0" /> <m:rmargin m:val="0" /> <m:defjc m:val="centergroup" /> <m:wrapindent m:val="1440" /> <m:intlim m:val="subsup" /> <m:narylim m:val="undovr" /> </m:mathpr></w:worddocument> </xml><!

[endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"century schoolbook","serif";} </style> <![endif].

glenster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehw1twFDDg0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O83tJUyxcrQ
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/27/travel/titanic-2-to-sail/?hpt=tr_c2
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/titanic-ii-interior-plans-revealed/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replica_Titanic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_II