Posts by glenster

18

A Return to Human Sacrifice?

by cameo-d in

many xtian churches teach that at the end times, human sacrifice will again be instituted.

this is what they say constitutes the "abomination of desolation".. .

following information is from: http://www.usbible.com/sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm.

"people who claim to be "christians...and yet they promoted war."

That case is only clear regarding offense. It's a forced point if in
reference to the debated matter of Christianity and government defense or
general ethics. For balance, see p.6 at the next link.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id20.html

cameo-d/Acharya S.: "that Hitler claimed all along to be a devout Catholic and
gave many favors to the Catholic Church; and that Stalin had been groomed for
the Russian Orthodox priesthood, is the fact that these dictators, as well as
other dictators of the past, believed themselves to be chosen, superior, or
destined to rule by supernatural forces that they attempted to propitiate. Be it
'God' or the 'Devil,' it is still religion."

Where did he get his information, which sounds like the JWs leaders' line on
the issue--just make it up? It's ironic, because those men propagandized. We
don't know they believed their own efforts at a cult of personality any more
than Popoff didn't know he had a radio transmitter in his ear. You can bring up
those men making themselves out to be heroes and compare it with religion, but
a few details about their relationships with religion should be added. From the
timeline about JWs leaders and persecution, war, etc., on page 6 at the same
link:

Hitler was raised by Catholic parents but abandoned the Catholic church and
didn't receive the sacraments. In contrast to the scriptures by apostle Paul
about assimilating among the Jewish and Gentile people and persuading their case
peacefully (Jesus didn't teach to find people who believe differently and beat
them up), with God showing no favoritism about race (Acts 17:16; 1 Cor.10:32-11:
1), abiding by government unless it calls on them to go against God then follow
God (Acts 5:29; Rom.13:1-7), Hitler was taken by a pseudo-scientific racist
version of social Darwinism to the extent of favoring eugenics and was murder-
ously anti-Semitic and nationalistic. When it came to a choice between Chris-
tianity and those things, he went with those things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

Hitler only professed to be Christian at times for political reasons since he
otherwise denied that he was and had strongly anti-scriptural beliefs and prac-
tices. Whatever slim chance there was that he may have believed he was Chris-
tian at times, the Bible believer, rightfully offended by Hitler's version, can
make a case for him being an apostate, and a critic of Christianity who wants to
paint with a broad brush to bash it (ironically with as much discernment as a
"Christian" with Hitler's blend of beliefs) may take his superficial quotes out
of context to leave the impression that he was Christian. Without being a mind-
reader, I know apostle James would advise you can tell his faith by his works so
to see Hitler as insincere. Whether one wants to believe in the Bible or not,
if Adolf Hitler isn't an example of an apostate, I'd hate to see what you'd need
dredged up to meet the requirement.

Part of Hitler's PR for power involved pandering to Christian faith for sup-
port against a popularly felt threat of Stalin's persecution of religion and
atheism--as long as the church didn't want much control in the matter. Part of
it was bonding with brutal anti-Semitism and nationalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Hitler.27s_religious_beliefs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinism

Stalin had the Russian Orthosox Church put through "Continuous persecution in
the 1930s" which "resulted in its near-extinction: by 1939, active parishes
numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been
leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and
killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938."

"Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including
the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc.
underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of
monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples,
sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#Religion

If most of Christendom, notably the Catholic leaders, supported Hitler during
WWII, I think Hitler would have won. Regarding the Watchtower reference to
those of other religions supporting a plan for a "master race," the JWs leaders
seem to like their propaganda in an ironic style--see the entries for Nov.12,
1930 to Oct.28, 1942 (not long after Rutherford passed away) on the timeline on
p.6 about the JWs leaders support of eugenics and anti-Semitism while the Nazi
government blatantly furthered both.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id20.html

A proper generalization refers to what's mostly true--most Catholics and Pro-
testants fought against the Nazi effort.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_anti-Semitism#Opposition_to_the_Holocaust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Pope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Hitler%27s_Pope

Hitler's positive Christianity ultimately failed in Germany:

"The German Christians led by Ludwig Müller were the principal agents in Hit-
ler's early attempt to Nazify Christianity in Germany by uniting the Protestant
churches under Müller's leadership, but this proposal met with resistance, as it
was rejected by many Christian pastors under the leadership of Martin Niemöller.
Following this failure, Hitler backtracked on attempts to directly Nazify the
churches."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

The Reichskonkordat was signed on July 20, 1933, by Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli
and Franz von Papen on behalf of Pope Pius XI and President Paul von Hindenburg,
respectively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat
http://romanchristendom.blogspot.com/2008/11/so-what-was-this-reichskoncordat-that.html

The evidence indicates that the truth isn't the same as Rutherford's
propaganda about Catholic leaders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Pope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII
http://www.randytv.com/Hitler/beyond_revisionism.htm

Besides most of the Christians fighting against, not for, Hitler, there's also
those who assisted Jews during the Holocaust--see a list at the next link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individuals_and_groups_assisting_Jews_during_the_Holocaust

Notice the religious figures on that list, including Pope Pius XII who "helped
save the lives of over 860,000 Jews," André and Magda Trocmé--"a French pastor
and his wife who led the Le Chambon-sur-Lignon village movement that saved
3,000-5,000 Jews," and that there aren't any neutral JWs, mismanaged by Ruther-
ford, on that list.

68

What is the JW theology?

by Doug Mason in

by "theology" i mean "the study of god (gk.

: theos).. jws keep rabbiting on ad nauseum about the trinity teaching being "irrational", "impossible to understand", etc.. i do not want this thread to be about the trinitarian doctrine.. i want to be given an explanation of what a jw believes.

i have seen so many arrows and spears thrown by jws, i want to know exactly what they are defending.. i want to see an explanation of "god" that is rational and can be understood.. doug.

glenster

Do you have the JWs leaders' commentaries "Insight on the Scriptures" and
"Reasoning from the Scriptures"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_reference_works#Insight_on_the_Scriptures

"Should You Believe in the Trinity?", online at the Jehovah's Witnesses
Official Web Site, has some of that information.
http://www.jehovantodistajat.fi/e/ti/index.htm

4

sacrifices to rome and caesar

by ssn587 in

josephus makes allusion to the fact that sacrifices to rome and caesar were made in the temple.

i have tried looking this up but so far no real info on it at all.

does anyone out there possess any?

glenster

Maybe one of these has what you want:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_%28ancient_Rome%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Caesar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Roman_religion

68

What is the JW theology?

by Doug Mason in

by "theology" i mean "the study of god (gk.

: theos).. jws keep rabbiting on ad nauseum about the trinity teaching being "irrational", "impossible to understand", etc.. i do not want this thread to be about the trinitarian doctrine.. i want to be given an explanation of what a jw believes.

i have seen so many arrows and spears thrown by jws, i want to know exactly what they are defending.. i want to see an explanation of "god" that is rational and can be understood.. doug.

glenster

"JWs keep rabbiting on ad nauseum about the Trinity teaching being
'irrational', 'impossible to understand', etc.

The JWs leaders' theology about God basically uses a selective self-contra-
dictory ironic use of "rationalism" when comparing the sinless archangel Michael
who was called "Lord" too much and not "Michael" at all version of Jesus they
use with the mainsteam view of God as the Father, Son, and Spirit in which Jesus
is the Son.

I'll use "rationalism" to mean that one only accepts the see-able, touchable,
measureable things and nothing else. (Actually, since belief in God is a faith
or hope for something beyond that, rationalism would be agnosticism or atheism,
but they skip over that. Faith can be an important, meaningful thing to a
person, but it's not rationalism.)
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id21.html

The JWs leaders' view uses the belief that God can create something from
nothing but His own power (Michael), which, by rationalism, skipping over the
idea that God exists, is self-contradictiory and impossible since by rationalism
beings can only create things from other things.

The mainstream view uses the belief that God can know everyone's thoughts and
hearts as a preliminary for the mental complexity needed for the mainstream
Father, Son, Spirit idea. It would boggle a normal single human's mind to try
to imagine either one. They're both beyond rationalism, although you might try
an analogy with a multi-track recording machine or a computer among the see-
able, touchable things.

Believers in both ideas about Jesus know that the Bible teaches THAT God can
create something from nothing AND that He can know everyone's thoughts and
hearts, and NEITHER group of believers can thoroughly understand HOW God does
either one.

Typically, the JWs leaders complain that they can't thoroughly understand the
mental complexity of God needed for the mainstream Father, Son, Spirit idea but
leave out that they can't thoroughly understand the mental complexity needed for
God to know everyone's thoughts and hearts or how He can create something from
nothing. It's not a deciding factor but they make it out to be one.

"I want to know exactly what they are defending." "I want to see an explana-
tion of 'God' that is rational and can be understood."

That's the comparison regarding rationalism I know. I know I'm believing when
I'm believing. (Also, I don't think a person should be too 'centric to be able
to be friends with believers or non-believers beyond their group or they're a
pain in the ass whichever group they pick.) And one thing I've seen and under-
stood is that the JWs leaders try to pull a fast one with a misuse of
"rationalism" just like they misuse research material whenever they try to
justify their 'centric "only leaders of the literal 144,000" exclusiveness.

The JWs leaders use of rationalism is irrational.

18

A Return to Human Sacrifice?

by cameo-d in

many xtian churches teach that at the end times, human sacrifice will again be instituted.

this is what they say constitutes the "abomination of desolation".. .

following information is from: http://www.usbible.com/sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm.

glenster

"WAR IS HUMAN SACRIFICE RITUAL TOO."

We all, except criminals, would prefer heaven on earth and no crime, but there
will probably be a need for police and militia, the same in many governments, to
minimize crime as long as common human selfishness is common. (It's debated,
but a good case can be made that it's part of what is commended in Rom.13.) But
I wouldn't do as the JWS leaders do and put the ones who may risk their lives
for defense on the same moral plane as those who commit the crime of being on
the offense or who overstep their bounds.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id20.html

Neutrality (the JWs leaders don't require pacifism) may be an optional
personal judgment call, but I don't see it as morally superior for a person to
stand by and not help when another is attacked. If you or anyone you care about
were ever the victim of serious crime, you probably wouldn't admire someone for
not helping with defense or want the police to not exist.

For one JWs leaders' example of bad leadership about it, Rutherford set his
German followers up to be martyrs (human sacrifices?) in WWII and had his US
JWs actually try to talk prospective JWS out of fighting against the Nazis.
Subsequent JWs leaders have also had their followers not help with police or
military defense.

Regarding Irag--"Why is no one concerned with helping them?"
see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Iraq

18

A Return to Human Sacrifice?

by cameo-d in

many xtian churches teach that at the end times, human sacrifice will again be instituted.

this is what they say constitutes the "abomination of desolation".. .

following information is from: http://www.usbible.com/sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm.

glenster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_ZWTx-QUj4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

5

How would the JWs leaders interpret the Beatles?

by glenster in

literally.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yj2ywvgnki.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7cgmv5bsbq.

glenster

Literally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yJ2yWvGnkI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Cgmv5BsbQ

1

Grab bag

by glenster in

some classical and jazz and blues..... mozart.

tchaikovsky.

bing with louis and jack and joe venuti.

glenster

Some classical and jazz and blues....

30

Son of God vs.God

by Mazzie Brossmann in

does anyone know how many religons believe jesus was the son of god rather than god in human form?

those of you who are still christians, do any of you now believe jesus is god?.

glenster

Both views

(Jesus as God's own Wisdom personified and sent to people, similar to Wisdom
in the intertestament Wisdom literature and basically like the Logos idea in
that Logos isn't a separate created being from the Demiurge,

and Jesus as a sinless created being, some considering him archangel Michael)

see Jesus as the Son of God and not God comprehensively. The first is the
majority view, but I don't know of a poll that shows the percentage that are
Unitarians.

My focus is mainly in the JWs leaders, who misrepresent the comparison. That
aside, and looking at what's left to better be able to compare, the mainstream
view has the stronger case for having been the believers' original intention.
What I have on it and early related history is on pp.6b to 10 at the next link.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/

12

Isaac Newton, Watchtower, and LDS...

by cameo-d in

.

glenster

I have no hate for Isaac Newton, one of the most important men of science.
But the JWs leaders give him as by way of "argument by authority," probably
because Newton was probably an Arian in his religious ideas, and I don't think
he had any ideas about it that change the outcome of the deliberation about
that. What each side brings to the issue makes the difference, not who said
it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton#Religious_views
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_by_authority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

A funny topic could be made about otherwise very bright people that show the
fallacy of "argument by authority." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, writer of Sherlock
Holmes books and another product of his times, believed in the Cottingley
Fairies and seances, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Conan_Doyle#Spiritualism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seances#Notable_s.C3.A9ance_mediums.2C_attendees.2C_and_debunkers

Regarding Albert Einstein: "One teacher even told him that he would never
amount to anything."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/181349/Albert-Einstein

"The world is more like it is now then it ever has before."
- Dwight Eisenhower, 34th President of the United States
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/GH-CelebrityStupid.html

"Anyone who in discussion relies upon authority uses, not his understanding,
but his memory."
Leonardo Da Vinci, Notebooks, c. 1500
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/n/nuland-leonardo.html