Posts by glenster

54

What do you think happens when you die?

by brainwashed-from-birth in

we were taught you are just unconscience in a grave "hell".

no burning fires or wonderful heaven where all our dreams come true.

i never feel like i am going to heaven.

glenster

This is the message board for "Blood, Medical Treatment & Depression." Your
blood stops, you don't need medical treatment, and your problems are over.

30

The Latest Lie

by agonus in

in a recent watchtower, the paradise earth doctrine and its "uniqueness" to jehovah's witnesses is discussed.

i don't have a scan available at the moment but i may be able to obtain one.. .

what i wanted to bring your attention to is the paragraph discussing the bible students' teaching of a "paradise earth" under pastor russell's leadership.

glenster

This is an update on what I have so far on Russell and who would live in
heaven or earth:

Regarding Hell as eternal torment:

"I, on the contrary, show from the Scriptures that God has no such plan; that
the passages of Scripture supposed to teach it are symbolical and misunderstood,
and that God's plan is one of justice and love in Christ, and will embrace, with
an opportunity of everlasting life, every member of the human family, either in
the present or in a future life." (Watch Tower, March 1, 1893)
http://www.ctrussell.us/

Charles taught Christian universalism except that his stance included himself
in a literal 144,000 of the most righteous--ones that agreed with Charles' dis-
tinctive doctrines and the reasons for his predictions--that would rule with Je-
sus, a great crowd of others like himself would be in heaven, and eventually
everyone else would live on earth.
http://www.archive.org/details/1893ZionsWatchTower
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/archive.htm#russell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism

(Also see "Studies in the Scriptures," Vol.IV, "The Battle of Armageddon,"
1886, pp.626-639)
http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0119.htm

100

To you what was the Watchtower Socity's biggest lie ?

by The Almighty Homer in

yes, what was the biggest lie that you can think of, that persuaded you to realize that they were not who they said they were ?.

for myself it would have to be the year they picked as the destruction of ancient jerusalem 607 bc.. i have an assumption this was done purposely to coincide correctly with making 1914 an a important pivotal date.

in human history, which by all factual evidence it was not.. unassuming and deceiving manipulation for self marketing purposes.

glenster

I don't know about picking one biggest lie of the JWs leaders, but the lie
that the other lies stem from is that they're the only rule makers of a literal
144,000. The other lies are born out of cooking up a dozen or so distinctive
rules meant to affect that exclusiveness, and the way they have to falsify
things to make it seem that the best evidence and reasoning supports those rules
as having been intended by the Bible.

Beyond that, it's particularly bad if anyone is hurt or killed over those
rules, such as by harsh disfellowshipping, including for persistent disagreement
with any of those rules, or by having a restricted range of medical treatments--
excluding the medical use of blood and major blood fractions--for themself or
their child, or the JWs leaders' expanded rules about what worldliness means
pits the followers against intolerant leaders, such as in Nazi Germany or
Malawi.

18

why give them quail and then kill em for eating it?

by highdose in

this is always a passage in the bible that puzzeled me, the isrealites wanted meat, so god gave them quail and then killed them for eating it!?!?!.

if there is an explanation i certainly never heard it from the wtbs!??.

i might also point out that when i listened to the bible drama recordings of this passage as a child, it sounded like the narrator was saying "whale" not " quail"!

glenster

Is this it?:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+11&version=NIV

I think it's basically meant as another case of rebelling against a God who's
making divine interventions in their behalf, which is bad strategy (you don't
bite the hand that feeds, spit into the wind, etc.).

30

The Latest Lie

by agonus in

in a recent watchtower, the paradise earth doctrine and its "uniqueness" to jehovah's witnesses is discussed.

i don't have a scan available at the moment but i may be able to obtain one.. .

what i wanted to bring your attention to is the paragraph discussing the bible students' teaching of a "paradise earth" under pastor russell's leadership.

glenster

1882 Russell taught that after 1881 additional converts will live their af-
terlife on earth: "But while we still would urge justified believers (who have
never yet consecrated) to now consecrate their time and powers to God's service,
we cannot hold out as a hope, the heavenly prize. We point such to the same
prize for which Abraham and all prior to Jesus ran, viz.: future earthly bless-
ings." ("Watchtower Reprints," July, 1882, p.377)

1883 Apparently, being told you aren't going to heaven wasn't a popular
favorite with the followers. Russell relocated them in a compromised way when
he taught that a "Great Crowd"/"Great Company," most of whom were alive at the
time, would be rescued from the Great Tribulation to be a secondary class of
those who would go to heaven. The 144,000 and Christ would be mediators between
the Father and the rest. ("Watchtower Reprints," March, 1883, p.458; "Watchtower
Reprints," 1897, p.2161)

Russell taught that those who didn't agree with his outlooks, which would be
most Christians, which he referred to as Christians in name only or "nominal"
Christians--would perish:

1914 After WWI broke out on July 28, 1914, Russell wrote:
"Following the style of some writers of today, who tell us of a general Euro-
pean conflagration, St. Peter describes the end of the nominal Church systems of
our day under the figure of a fire. The heavens being on fire shall pass away
with a great noise--great disputation, confusion, etc.; "the earth also and the
works that are therein shall be burned up," writes St. Peter. "The fire of that
Day shall try every man's work of what kind it is," writes St. Paul.--`2 Peter
3:10`; `1 Corinthians 3:13`." ("Watchtower Reprints," Aug.15, 1914, pp.5516,
5517)

1914 "Probably not more than one in ten of all the Protestant ministers of
the world would today acknowledge that he still holds fast his faith and confi-
dence in the Bible as God's inspired Message. The other nine-tenths, if cross-
questioned, would privately admit that they had lost their hold, or been shaken
loose, and perhaps would boast of it even in public. Others, through fear of
loss of prestige or salary, would seek to dodge the question and give evasive
answers." ("Watchtower Reprints," Aug.1, 1914, pp.5516,5517)

You have to remember that he meant belief in the Bible on his terms, which
included a created Christ that was to be worshipped and when he invisibly re-
turned. Considering that, he may have cut himself an overly generous slice with
his one in ten.

Rutherford's big 1917 figure, 411,840,000, nearly a third of the world's
population at the time, considering the much smaller number of his followers and
how soon he kept saying the worldly system would end, must refer to what those
on Earth who followed Russell/Rutherford would grow to be eventually.

1935 On May 31, 1935, at a Washington, DC, JWs convention, Rutherford changed
the destination of the "great crowd," his interpretation of Rev.7:9 (JWs beyond
the alleged literal 144,000), from heaven to Paradise on Earth. ("The Watchtow-
er," Sept.1, 1983, p.12)

29

the name Jehovah in the New Testament

by jahrule in

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glenster

"Jehovah"s are in the NWT to get rid of "Lord"s which can be taken as refer-
ring to Jesus, notably cases indicating Jesus was prayed to. 1st century Jews
indicated belief in one God with prayer and worship for Him alone. The rest of
the JWs leaders' case is just meant to rationalize the replacement.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id18.html

It's weird trying to imagine the original believers rewriting all those
writings, written in various places over decades and spreading to various other
areas, to replace "YHWH"s with "Lord"s. You'd have to imagine it being done so
thoroughly, with such agreement, that there's no record of it even among the
volumes of teachings about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, including disputes,
that arose. Even the Arians aren't known to refer back to there having been
"YHWH"s replaced with "Lord"s to support their case.

The JWs leaders aren't even good liars--a good liar would at least try to be
consistent to be credible.

Contradiction 1:

- The JWs leaders' case for being a still-growing 144,000 has it that the
earliest Christians were like them about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (but
strangely non-committal) and disappeared quickly (so quickly that history
doesn't record them).
- Yet the "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" tract mischaracterizes the
1st several centuries of Ante-Nicene Fathers as JWs leaders types on the issue
of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id23.html

Contradiction 2:

If we pick the latter stance, the mischacterization of the Ante-Nicene Fathers
as JWs leaders' types on the issue of Father, Son, and Holy Sprit, that would
mean JWs leaders' types removed a bunch of "Jehovah"s from the NT and replaced
them with "Lord"s so readers would think they were supposed to pray to Jesus--
the mainstream view of Jesus--in conflict with their own view.

Contradiction 3

Much of the rest of the JWs leaders' case for NT "Jehovah"s is that they go
with the JWs leaders' stance that the original Christians had the JWs leaders'
stance about scriptures regarding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which shows
the JWs leaders to misrepresent and contradict the actual comparison with the
basic mainstream view and contradict what related history actually is.

To see the difference between the actual mainstream view of the issue and
related history, and the way the JWs leaders misrepresent them, see pp.6b-10 at
the next link.
http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn6b.htm

31

When did Jehovah's Witnesses begin to consider their religion the one true religion?

by garyneal in

yesterday, my wife and i was going for a walk in the neighborhood.

she was carrying my niece and commenting on how heavy she is.

i told her that apparently her sister has to carry her child, diaper bag, and her things to the bus stop every morning.

glenster

"When did Jehovah's Witnesses begin to consider their religion the one true
religion?"

"Well, not exactly from the beginning..."

I don't know about "exactly," but it was from the beginning.

For Russell to claim to not have a set of divisive creeds, yet claim elitism
for himself and damn the lion's share of Christians, seems like double talk at
first. It was meant to maintain the elitist stance, which he'd claim was
"Biblical," and consider whatever mainstream non-Russell ideas as "creeds" that
caused unfortunate division from those that agreed wth him. (Not having "creeds"
may also have been meant to cut himself a little slack regarding changing pyra-
mid calculations and such.)

Some highlights of Russell and elitism

Initially, Russell taught that the Harvest of the "elect," an elite group that
included himself and whoever agreed with everything he said (which would be a
little group) was to last until 1881, although that date changed as time went
by. Russell eventually specified that the elect, otherwise called the "little
flock," was the 144,000 of Rev.14:1-5 taken literally to be 144,000 followers.
("Watchtower Reprints," 1881, p.224; 1880, p.172)

That's less than the current population of Boise, Idaho for most of two mil-
lenniums of God drawing people to himself. It makes John 3:16 come out differ-
ently. I guess it depends how you say the word "so"--God "so" loved the world....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boise

A great crowd who would live on Earth was a group of those who agreed with him
but weren't adhering to that as strictly or weren't as righteous as his 144,000
or such, but excluded the vast majority.

He also predicted 144,000 Jews would return to Palestine and coonvert to
Christianity in 1914, which didn't happen. A number that big didn't go there
by 1914, even without the conversion.

1880 Regarding Rom.11:15, Russell taught that there would be a restoration of
a literal 144,000 (Rev.7:2-8) Jews to Palestine due by the end of 1914.

"As has been many times shown, the times of the Gentiles last about thirty-
five years from the spring of 1880; and the return of the Jews to Palestine is
rapidly becoming an indisputable fact.

"The apology for presenting this subject, is, that the return of the Jews, and
the time of trouble are becoming apparent facts; and it is believed that the two
facts will be the means, in the next 35 years, of the conversion of the 144,000
Jews, and the great multitude of all nations, who will come up out of or after
the great tribulation, with their robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb--
'Rev. 7'." ("The Watchtower," June, 1880, pp.107,108)

The Rev.7:2-8 144,000 isn't to be confused with the Rev.14:1-5 144,000, which
he meant as his "little flock"--"the elect."

1891 "And, with the end of A.D. 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men
call Christendom, will have passed away, as is already shown from prophecy."
("Thy Kingdom Come," 1891, p.153)

1908 Russell wrote that he wasn't claiming his "Studies in the Scriptures"
books were faultless, but "Even our enemies must concede, and many of them do
concede, that the facts as they have developed year by year since we began these
presentations in 1876 have most wonderfully, most remarkably, corroborated our
expectations and continue to do so. For instance, the Jews had not thought of
returning to their own land when, in 1878, we pointed out that the time for fa-
vor to that people had chronologically begun, in fulfillment of Isaiah's pro-
phecy, 'Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith my God. Speak ye comfortably un-
to Jerusalem, and cry unto her that her appointed hour is accomplished, that her
iniquity is pardoned; for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all
her sins.' (Isa. 40:1,2.) Zionism was not dreamed of at that time, and began to
take practical form seventeen years afterward." ("Views from the Watch Tower,"
Jan.1, 1908, p.5, Reprints 4110) (See 1880.)
http://ctr.reslight.net/?p=40

Russell created some revisionist history to make it seem like he predicted
something in 1878 that was otherwise undreamed of and only went from an idea to
the forming of a practice of it seventeen years later--in 1895. Compare that
with the facts at the next link, such as in the section titled "British Influ-
ence":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

For example: "Benjamin Disraeli wrote in his article entitled 'The Jewish
Question is the Oriental Quest' (1877) that within fifty years a nation of one
million Jews would reside in Palestine under the guidance of the British."

1910 "Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan
in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the
'Scripture Studies' aside, even after he has used them, after he has become fa-
miliar with them, after he has read them for ten years--if he then lays them
aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his
Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into
darkness.

"On the other hand, if he had merely read the 'Scripture Studies' with their
references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the
light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scrip-
tures." ("Zion's Watch Tower," Sept.15, 1910, p.298)

Russell may have needed to put a decimal point in his 144,000 of elitism:

1914 "The evidences seem to be that there are still quite a number of vacan-
cies in the elect number, because there are people coming into Present Truth and
consecrating who have come directly from the world. This would seem to indicate
that there are not at present a sufficient number fully consecrated to complete
the 144,000. If there were, these would be given the preference over those not
consecrated." ("Watchtower Reprints," March 1, 1914, p.5411)

1914 After WWI broke out on July 28, 1914, Russell wrote:
"Following the style of some writers of today, who tell us of a general Euro-
pean conflagration, St. Peter describes the end of the nominal Church systems of
our day under the figure of a fire. The heavens being on fire shall pass away
with a great noise--great disputation, confusion, etc.; "the earth also and the
works that are therein shall be burned up," writes St. Peter. "The fire of that
Day shall try every man's work of what kind it is," writes St. Paul.--`2 Peter
3:10`; `1 Corinthians 3:13`." ("Watchtower Reprints," Aug.15, 1914, pp.5516,
5517)

1914 "Probably not more than one in ten of all the Protestant ministers of
the world would today acknowledge that he still holds fast his faith and confi-
dence in the Bible as God's inspired Message. The other nine-tenths, if cross-
questioned, would privately admit that they had lost their hold, or been shaken
loose, and perhaps would boast of it even in public. Others, through fear of
loss of prestige or salary, would seek to dodge the question and give evasive
answers." ("Watchtower Reprints," Aug.1, 1914, pp.5516,5517)

You have to remember that he meant belief in the Bible on his terms, which
included a created Christ that was to be worshipped and when he invisibly re-
turned. Considering that, he may have cut himself an overly generous slice with
his one in ten.

28

Do you still read the bible?

by boyzone in

i can't.

i can't even bring myself to pick up the book anymore but i'm still a christian.. not sure why, just this feeling of guilt when i read it, and guilt if i don't.. anyone else have an aversion to the good book?.

.

glenster

"I don't think I could ever find a loving God there."

One way to understand the love Job found in God is to take God out of it and
just have him regard life. It's the same bad stuff in life with or without God.
For all the bad, you wouldn't say you can't find any love in life. It's like
that if you add an article of faith for Him. The idea of Him not having love
would be as much a mischaracterization as the idea that He's all-beneficent and
we all live in heavenly circumstances.

The JWs leaders, efforts at claiming specialties notwithstanding, leave an
impression that you either take the Bible as literal history and science (as
they mischaracterize them, too) or nothing. That's a forced choice like the
ones they use teaching their specialties. You can also imagine an author knew
they were writing figuratively for theological teaching. (For instance, I don't
remember reading about ancient searches for Noah's ark.) It's vaguely like not
having to prove someone else has to love a song you love.

11

If you've never said OMG - say it NOW!

by AK - Jeff in

gang accused of killing to sell human fat fri nov 20, 11:03 am etlima (reuters) peruvian police said on thursday they had broken up a gang that allegedly killed dozens of people and sold their fat to buyers who used it to make cosmetics.. four peruvians were arrested on suspicion of kidnapping, murder and trafficking in human fat.. the group stored the fat it collected in used soda and water bottles, which police showed reporters.. "we have people detained who have declared and stated how they murdered people with the aim being to extract their fat in rudimentary labs and sell it," said police commander angel toldeo.. in addition to those taken into custody, police said they were searching for others who bought fat from the gang or might have worked with it.. remains from some of the victims were found at a rural house in the region of huanuco where the group worked, according police video.. police said they were investigating 60 disappearances in the area that might be linked to the gang.. the investigation started this month after police heard about a shipment of fat that arrived in lima by bus from peru's mountains.. (reporting by carlos valdez and terry wade; editing by todd eastham).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091120/od_nm/us_peru_crime_odds