You Know:
Can you contact me through my e-mail? I would like to exchange some thoughts I have and get your viewpoints.
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
Escargot
JoinedPosts by Escargot
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60
Psalm 50: JEHOVAH'S JUDICIAL RULINGS
by You Know inthe 50th psalm is one of jehovah's as-of-yet-unrevealed judicial decisions that will become operative upon his people during the tribulation.
the following is a brief overview of the chapter.. "the divine one, god, jehovah, has himself spoken,.
and he proceeds to call the earth.
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60
Psalm 50: JEHOVAH'S JUDICIAL RULINGS
by You Know inthe 50th psalm is one of jehovah's as-of-yet-unrevealed judicial decisions that will become operative upon his people during the tribulation.
the following is a brief overview of the chapter.. "the divine one, god, jehovah, has himself spoken,.
and he proceeds to call the earth.
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Escargot
(1) Funny, but 90% of the Christian letters are addressed to the “congregation,” or those in the act of congregating, not to a body of elders and then the other brothers. Your use of “Overseers” is very telling and not, in my view, reflected in scriptures.
(2) Funny, but I agree with Brother Russell’s view of how a congregation can be organized as demonstrated with his arraignment at the turn of the century. He allowed room for debate (like Paul) and did not swing the ax every time an issue was addressed. Maybe the current JW structure will revert back to Russell’s understanding like they have on many other matters.
(3) I agree that disfellowshipping is scriptural, however the Jws currently misuse disfellowshipping and have caused a lot of “pain” within the congregation and within the family arrangement.
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
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60
Psalm 50: JEHOVAH'S JUDICIAL RULINGS
by You Know inthe 50th psalm is one of jehovah's as-of-yet-unrevealed judicial decisions that will become operative upon his people during the tribulation.
the following is a brief overview of the chapter.. "the divine one, god, jehovah, has himself spoken,.
and he proceeds to call the earth.
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Escargot
<<<The case involving the immoral Corinthian is an example of how the process works for all cases. The whole congregation was not involved in judging. That is absurd>>>
Paul said that the wrongdoer should be forgiven by "Them," the Congregation, not through a committee of elders first.
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
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60
Psalm 50: JEHOVAH'S JUDICIAL RULINGS
by You Know inthe 50th psalm is one of jehovah's as-of-yet-unrevealed judicial decisions that will become operative upon his people during the tribulation.
the following is a brief overview of the chapter.. "the divine one, god, jehovah, has himself spoken,.
and he proceeds to call the earth.
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Escargot
<<<quote:
(2) Paul then states that the ““Majority”” rebuke was sufficient. Paul says nothing about disfellowshipping the Minority who choose not to rebuke the wrongdoer.
That's not true. The counsel was clear that everyone should withdraw from anyone who is "called a brother" who is judged unfit by the congregation>>>>(1) I quoted Pauls words, He used “Majority.” He did not state: “All.” Think about it, if there was (only!) a "majority," (Paul’s words), then there must be a Minority. Think about it.
<<That is a lie. As Paul showed the Corinthian congregation, each congregation, represented by its older men, has authority to expel wrongdoers---handing them over to Satan.>>
(2) Your words prove my current viewpoint. “Paul” hands them over. Apostolic authority at its best. No where can you cite a scripture that states that the matter was directed to the Elders for handling of this or any other matter related to Apostates or Disfellowshipping. Please show me at least one scripture on the matter. Also, the term ‘Congregation” in Greek, does not have the meaning of “membership” into something, but the meaning of “meeting together,” the act of meeting together. Where does it state from the scriptures that Elders represent that act of meeting together (a congregation)? Like I posted: “Elders were given the authority to serve, never to dictate to, or dominate others. Elders take the lead in restoring, however the ““scriptures themselves do not place elders in a privileged relationship, restricting to them exclusively such things as encouragement, reproving or seeking to restore persons who take a wrong course.”
Elder as a judge? Wow, what scripture do you use for that one? The Flock book uses that term. However, I could never find a bible verse to back it up.
Calling names won’t help, citing scriptures does.
(3) Christ stated that we only have one master and “all of you are brothers”. This must be considered when examining all scriptures related to the responsibilities of “elders.”. Please see Romans 14:1.
(4) <<“So, Philaenus and Hymenaeus were directly contradicting what the apostles were teaching” >>
Ahhh, “the apostles teachings” There is that “Apostolic Authority" again. They were not disfellowshipped, just rebuked. And, shame on Paul for not consulting the Elders in their Congregation first. They were contradicting Apostolic teaching. No one can claim that power today (However, the WTBS does a good job).
(5) “ In his counsel to Timothy, Paul urged him to stay clean from wrong influence and to avoid contentious debating. At the same time he did not instruct Timothy to combat such things with a show of authority or by threatening organizational reprisals. Genuine Christians today should follow the example of God, his son and his Son’s apostles, not that of an authoritarian organization”
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
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60
Psalm 50: JEHOVAH'S JUDICIAL RULINGS
by You Know inthe 50th psalm is one of jehovah's as-of-yet-unrevealed judicial decisions that will become operative upon his people during the tribulation.
the following is a brief overview of the chapter.. "the divine one, god, jehovah, has himself spoken,.
and he proceeds to call the earth.
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Escargot
<<<You are denying the fact that the 1st century congregation had authority to "hand over to Satan" any who were judged as blasphemers or apostates. That authority to judge is from Christ. >>>
Some points to consider:
(1) The apostle Paul, not the Congregation, used/had apostolic authority to instruct them to do this. This fact alone needs to be considered when making pronouncements.
(2) Paul then states that the “Majority” rebuke was sufficient. Paul says nothing about disfellowshipping the Minority who choose not to rebuke the wrongdoer.
(3) This was not a case of Aposticy, it was a case of Immorality.
(4) The cited process here involved the whole congregation, not a few men who met in secret to decide the fate of the persons involved.
(5) Elders were given the authority to serve, never to dictate to, or dominate others. Elders take the lead in restoring, however the “scriptures themselves do not place elders in a privileged relationship, restricting to them exclusively such things as encouragement, reproving or seeking to restore persons who take a wrong course.” (R Franz)
(6) Regarding Apostates, “(2 John 9-11), what is at issue was “the teaching of the Christ,” not the teaching of some religious movement. What was that teaching? That Jesus was the Christ that he gave his life for mankind and had been resurrected, and putting in practice his teachings and morals (RO 10:6-9; 1Cor 12:3; Matt:16:16,17) It was not the belief in a complex set of “unique teachings” developed centuries later by some religious movement such as the WTBS.”
(R Franz.)Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
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!!ONE MORE ELDER FACING WTS EXECUTION !
by exodus inwell, here it is, after almost 20 years 12 of those serving in position of responsibility it comes down to my spiritual execution(jw style).
allow me to explain.
for those who you who still remember me from h20 under the name truthexodus i came to post my experience as an elder of local congregation in nyc area.
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Escargot
With all due respect You Know, I read nothing scripturally wrong with what he has written so far. It takes courage to help reform valid concerns. In a true brotherhood, he would still be welcome. I have great respect for your posts as they come from your current point of view, I would defend you before a committee if you ever got “caught” posting here.
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
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48
!!ONE MORE ELDER FACING WTS EXECUTION !
by exodus inwell, here it is, after almost 20 years 12 of those serving in position of responsibility it comes down to my spiritual execution(jw style).
allow me to explain.
for those who you who still remember me from h20 under the name truthexodus i came to post my experience as an elder of local congregation in nyc area.
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Escargot
Hang in there man. If I was you, I would show up with a letter of disassociation with the content being you are “stumbled” by the lack of due process in your alleged situation. Don't let them have the last word! You can have the last word and the last action!!
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
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What song do you want played at your funeral?
by ballistic inwhat song do you want playing at your funeral?.
i'll be having "going underground" by the jam.
i was too far out... and not waving but drowning - stevie smith
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Escargot
I like the new song from the new JW song book called: “Awaiting Reinstatement.” A song with a great tune, for all those who are trying to get back in, but still need some wup’ass before mercy is extended.. What a loving provision!
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
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HOW THE WTBS CONTINUES TO MISS THE POINT!
by JUSTAMOM inhello to all today:.
just reading in the book of isaiah 55-....and came across chapter 58. .
wow!
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Escargot
Brother Ray Franz sure addressed the JW misuse of Disfellowshipping in his second book, stating That Paul said the rebuke of the “majority” is sufficient, he says nothing about disfellowshipping the “minority” who choose not to rebuke the wrongdoer.
Also, disfellowshipping occurred to persons who “are” fornicators, who “are” drunkards, not persons who “at one time” were these things.
Also, the whole congregation was involved in the issue, not some elders in a back room, in secret.
Elders are given the authority to serve, not dictate to or rule over.Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
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Please help me with the forum
by Simon inkeeping a balance in what is allowed and what is not is very difficult and is more difficult if i have to take action against one person when i have let other things go by others.. it would help a lot if we could stop the personal attacks and some of the name calling & insults that are thrown about.
i know personalities do and will clash but please disagree about the subjects being discussed and not get personal!.
if you think someone is deliberately trying to cause arguments please do not respond to them as this is giving in to what they want.
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Escargot
Well, how about this:
1: Start a new "Forum" where “anything goes” as to remarks and such, with the warning that if you open it, read it, respond to it, you get what you deserve.
2. Explain to all that other current Forums will NOT tolerate violations.
3. Give all a clean slate to start over, with the new rules in place
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."