Posts by neverendingjourney

385

NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower

by Ultimate Reality in

from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .

article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.

13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.

neverendingjourney

these are the same people that brought you miracle wheat and dates from all over the place

I was re-reading Chapter 1 of Crisis of Conscience last night. In it, Franz recounts how in a 1940s convention Rutherford gathered all the children in attendance at the front and addressed his talk to them urging them to forego marriage because the end was imminent. That convention saw the release of the Children book, which encouraged the same. The official push for celibacy was not dropped until almost a decade later when the next president, Nathan Knorr, got married. That was nearly 70 years ago! To paraphrase Solomon "there is nothing new under the sun."

385

NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower

by Ultimate Reality in

from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .

article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.

13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.

neverendingjourney

Isaac,

As I referred to in my prior post on this topic, what happens when the number of anointed who have existed throughout the WT's history exceeds 144,000? If they keep adding "new" anointed every year, eventually it will be evident that more than 144k anointed have existed throughout WT history. Therefore, the overlapping anointed doctrine will not be able to save them forever unless they scrap 144k as a literal number or imply that many of the anointed were illegitimate.

385

NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower

by Ultimate Reality in

from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .

article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.

13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.

neverendingjourney

The next problem on the horizon, assuming they keep this "overlapping generations" nonsense in place for a few decades, is that eventually the number of anointed that have existed throughout the history of the WT organization will exceed 144,000.

Every JW was anointed until roughly the 1930s. At that point there were tens of thousands of them. Since then, the number has hovered in the 5 digit range. What happens in 2060 or so when it becomes possible to go back and count the number of anointed throughout WT history and the figure exceeds 144,000? Do they discard 144k as a literal number? Do they imply that many of the anointed were illegitimate? Do they simply ignore the elephant in the room and hope nobody notices?

I guess that's a problem for down the line. The WT has bigger issues on its hand right now.

385

NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower

by Ultimate Reality in

from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .

article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.

13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.

neverendingjourney

So according to the WT generation of "generation," a child born today--in 2010--is actually part of Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation"

And today's kindergardener is a part of the WWI generation because Kama Chinen of Japan who is the oldest living person was born in 1895. You see, these generations "overlap"

385

NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower

by Ultimate Reality in

from jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .

article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.

13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.

neverendingjourney

Per usual, the Watchtower has made what on the surface appears to be a clear-cut doctrinal change, but it’s left itself plenty of wiggle room to change its stance in the future and claim it didn't make any predictions but only suggested certain possibilities. Meanwhile, all baptized JWs are expected to accept and view this new understanding as "truth." Those who don’t embrace it subject themselves to excommunication. Yet, the WT is somehow not prophesying. Who said you can't have your cake and eat it too?

Let's look at some of their weasel words:

Although we cannot measure the exact length of “this generation,” we do well to keep in mind several things about the word “generation”

Translation: Although we refuse to be held accountable for our predictions, this is what JWs must accept as current truth.

It usually refers

If we change our minds yet again, we never said that the generation definitely means this or that. It usually means what we said it meant.

He evidently meant that

We're not saying we directly speak for Jesus or know with any certitude what Jesus meant. JWs, however, will know that they must accept this current understanding as truth or face disfellowshipment

There's even some built in wiggle room in these words: "That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near."

Notice the words "surely will have an end" and "tribulation must be near." The WT doesn't say "will have an end" or "tribulation is near." The words "surely" and "must" leave open the room for a little bit of doubt. For example, "surely the bus will arrive on time" is an expression of an expectation that the bus will arrive on time as it perhaps has many times before. This is much different than saying "the bus will arrive on time," which is an affirmative expression saying something will definitively occur, i.e., don't worry, the bus will get here at its scheduled time. The same holds true for the words "must be near." More wiggle room.

Would any reasonable lawyer advise his client to sign a contract or a deed with such uncertain terms? I think not. Yet many of us made the unfortunate decision to figuratively sign a contract with this religion via baptism. Live and learn, I guess.

9

Any "single issue" faders or leavers around?

by Mad Sweeney in

i doubt this will get a lot of response but here goes anyway.

.

anyone fading (or just left cold turkey) over a single issue (such as blood, pedophelia, or shunning, for example) who would be willing to return if the borg finally reformed that particular doctrine to your satisfaction?.

neverendingjourney

I'm a single-issue fader if you consider "not teaching the truth" to be a single issue. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is such a thing as "the truth" anymore, so I don't see how they could reform. But in theory, yes, if they started teaching the truth, I would return.

30

Pink Floyd - Your Favorite Songs from Them ? U-tubes welcome !

by flipper in

jw
friends

pink floyd in my opinion really kind of fused orchestration with electric guitars in a heavy progressive way which blazed the trail for progressive groups i feel.

here are my all time favs from pink floyd and mr .

gilmour and watters.. 1. comfortably numb.

neverendingjourney

A little-know, but great song by Pink Floyd: Wot's...uh the deal from their 1972 album Obscured by Clouds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygQlziuyZ6w

25

CONVENTION PHOTO !!

by elder-schmelder in

jw
friends

i found this picture on facebook.. but i wanted to ask everyone a question.

how many people here remember a moment in their young adult life at the conventions like this?.

[picture removed - it's unclear if this is publicly available or copied without permission - simon].

neverendingjourney

The photos bring back memories of how much of a generation gap there was at assemblies. By that I mean that you would see a lot of high-school age JWs walking around trying to catch the attention of the opposite sex. But you wouldn't see that many young 20 somethings. By that age they were married, disfellowshipped, or just stopped attending altogether.

I went to one day of the district convention last year as a favor to my parents. It was amazing to see the number of teenagers just walking around aimlessly and the gap in the 20-30 crowd. It never made an impression of me when I was a kid because I always kind of viewed myself as an adult, but going back now as a grown man, I could see the age gap clearly.

37

If You Want to Expose JW's, Get it Right!

by AllTimeJeff in

jehovah's witnessses, (and esp their leadership, the governing body) are guilty of so many things, that one has to be careful of the tabloid rumors swirling around them.. it's probably helpful to review first of all what jw's are guilty of.

they are absolutely guilty in their efforts to control active members under the dictates of the conscience of the gb.

every other watchtower article usually has big time references to how we shouldn't be like those self righteous pharisees in jesus day for all the rules, followed by another article next describing what one can (could) or can't (shouldn't) watch on tv, wear for clothing or hairstyles, etc.

neverendingjourney

Former JW's (I speak for myself here mainly) I think are surprised at how little "worldly" people care about JW's. They are fringe weirdo's to most people. No one wants to ban them. No one wants to persecute them

A few years ago when the Witnesses were banned in Moscow (I seem to remember it being around 2003 or so) there was a palpable excitement throughout the congregation. Many oldtimers speculated with a glow in their eyes that it was a sign the Great Tribulation was about to begin. Then nothing else happened. The only people who wish to persecute JWs are other religious fanatics who think their invisible man in the sky is greater than the JWs deity in the sky. The rest of the world continues living their lives without barely noticing them. They're an answer to a trivia question to the vast majority of the non-fanatical world.

As an aside, I remember being particularly irritated by this because a recent Watchtower a few months earlier had prominently chronicled some Supreme Court case the JWs had won in the U.S. All the talk was about how JWs were blazing the trail for religious freedoms (because Jehovah is on their side). Then they turned around highlighted how the government in Moscow was turning against them and persecuting them, you guessed it, because Jehovah is on their side. I couldn't just lap that up anymore. About a year later I began my fade.

25

Why does every prophecy has to have two (or more) completions?

by teel in

you know the standard jw doctrine, babylon the great, fall of jerusalem, kingship of david, jonah's life you name it, it has to have a "bigger completion" later.

some of these are actually mentioned in the bible - jesus being the bigger jonah, revelations mentioning the fall of babylon the great many years after the actuall babylon fell, jerusalem falling to babylon was just a precursor to jerusalem falling to the romans, which was just a precursor to... (what now?

meh... is old age creeping upon me?

neverendingjourney

A person who converts (such as myself) eventually supresses their dobuts about the level-2 stuff in light of the "truth" of the level-1 information.

I agree with your analysis, but I've looked at it a little bit differently. From my perspective, it's the buy-the-whole-ranch-because-you-like-the-cow syndrome. A potential convert becomes throughly schooled in the flaws of the major Christian denominations. Long-held articles of faith such as hellfire, the trinity, heavenly hope for all the faithful are attacked from every angle while the flaws in JW doctrine are ignored. The potential convert becomes convinced that all of the other major religions have it wrong, so therefore JWs must have "the truth."

If the potential convert is astute, she will pick up on the fact that there are plenty of holes in JW theology as well, but the 'truths" she has been presented with are seemingly unavailable anywhere else, so she accepts the JW dogma despite its flaws. If you combine this with the fact that many new converts are in vulnerable positions in their lives (single mothers, immigrants, suffering the death of a loved one, etc.), the flaws in JW teachings become easier to swallow in light of everything else they have to offer.

Of course, the flaw with this is that all denominations have flaws in them. It's not science. It's faith. If there weren't any flaws, it'd be universally recognized as fact. Any religion can come along and poke holes in other religions to foment loyalty among its members, and many do. The key is: Can a religion adequately defend it's own creed without resorting to comments about "the light getting brighter" or "God working in mysterious ways?" Unfortunately, people who seek religion tend to be searching desperately for answers and are therefore prone to overlook the logical problems associated with religions like the JWs.