Posts by neverendingjourney

47

What Works Best on Exposing JW's? All of the above....

by AllTimeJeff in

there are some days when i log in here and because of my own views on governing body dogma (which is, its a big smelly stinky wet pile of shit), i find myself writing essays about subjects concerning how nutty their doctrines really are, how weak they are.

so i do these expose's and at the end of it, i feel better, because i know, (i know!

) that the governing body are cynical liars, and that their doctrine is total crap.. i know this is good for those who actually care enough to take up the gb on its offer to "study the deeper things", might question what they find, and want some other info... thats how it started with me.... lately however..... this other way, where you simply mock jw's.... when i first came here, i was pretty sensitive to that.

neverendingjourney

Jeff,

This is probably a little off topic, but I turned 30 recently. About a dozen of my friends and I went out to celebrate. None of them know about my JW past. I got phone calls from a lot of other friends I've made in the four years since I left the WT. My phone was pretty busy, yet, there wasn't a single phone call from my family, of course. For the first time since I've been "out," I viewed that as strange. Here was a major milestone in my life, and yet it's as if it never happened.

I guess it goes to show how far I've come in shedding myself of the old JW mindset. My instincts have begun to change. When I became inactive, I'd feel uncomfortable the first few times I walked into a bar, smoked cigarettes, celebrated holidays, etc. My JW instincts were still there. I specifically remember one night when I couldn't sleep well and woke up the next morning overcome by guilt because I had gone out and partied the night before. It was the same feeling I got when I was a dub when I knew I had done something "wrong" and needed to confess to the elders (The next day, by the way, I posted a topic about it on here and received some pretty good advice). Those days are pretty much over.

I can see what you mean about being less sensitive to the nasty remarks aimed at JWs on the board. I still think it's counterproductive, but I'm not much bothered by it on a personal level anymore. I'm less sensitive to the reasons people who choose to remain JWs give, even though I conducted a several-year-long fade for a lot of those same reasons.

The bottom line is that the more time we spend away from JWs, the less JW remains is in us. I completely understand where you're coming from on that front.

122

Could Watchtower Collapse Be Sooner Than You Think?

by metatron in

jw
friends

there have been a number of developments over the past few months and they paint an interesting picture.. witnesses can keep dragging themselves to meetings ad infinitum however, the future of the watchtower itself is another story.

the evidence of continuing cash flow problems is now overwhelming.

if you talk to well placed witnesses, most won't deny it but simply blame it on the publishers financial problems.. they have cut off loans to congregations many of whom genuinely need new kingdom halls.

neverendingjourney

Your approach assumes these two things are somehow still mutually exclusive, when they are NOT separate issues. When the loyalty stops, the money stops.

Is it possible that the global recession is having an impact on donations? Is it possible that they've overinvested in real estate that can be expensive to maintain (thus eating up a lot of their liquid assets)? Is it possible that the overall ratio of JWs who are poor has been escalating over the past decade or two? Is it possible for WT leadership to maintain their control over the rank and file even if they were to get out of the publishing business altogether?

You seem to think not, while I leave open the possibility that there are other reasons contributing to the Watchtower's cash problems. To each his own. I can't say for certain what's behind the WT's cash flow issues and neither can you.

54

Does eating a rare steak = eating blood?

by neverendingjourney in

jw
friends

i always wondered about this when i was still a jw.

i just assumed that it was improper for a jw to eat any meat that wasn't thoroughly cooked, especially steak.

i though everyone could see that the red juice contained blood, which, if eaten, amounted to a violation of the prohibition against eating blood.

neverendingjourney

Wow. The second thread I ever posted on JWD resurrected. It seems like only yesterday...

heard the "meat juice" theory.

If I ever need a blood transfusion, I'm going to tell my family it's not blood, just people juice

122

Could Watchtower Collapse Be Sooner Than You Think?

by metatron in

jw
friends

there have been a number of developments over the past few months and they paint an interesting picture.. witnesses can keep dragging themselves to meetings ad infinitum however, the future of the watchtower itself is another story.

the evidence of continuing cash flow problems is now overwhelming.

if you talk to well placed witnesses, most won't deny it but simply blame it on the publishers financial problems.. they have cut off loans to congregations many of whom genuinely need new kingdom halls.

neverendingjourney

To properly analyze this subject, we need to keep in mind that we're dealing with two interrelated yet separate issues:

1. The financial well-being of the WTBTS, and

2. The rank-and-file's loyalty towards WT leadership

Even if we were able to prove the WT's financial woes with something more than anecdotal evidence, it wouldn't show that the rank-and-file JWs have lost the faith. So long as the R&F continue to believe in the concept of "Jehovah's organization" and remain loyal to the GB, the religion's money problems are virtually meaningless. The WT can continue to scale back on literature production, sell real estate, and lay off Bethelites in order to put their financial house in order. While money problems may be indicative of a slow decline, I don't think it signals a future collapse.

In my view, a rapid collapse of the religion will only come about through one of two ways (1) a schism at the very highest levels of the religion (i.e., several GB members defect to start their own religion), or (2) a grassroots reform movement from the inside. Both of these scenarios are highly unlikely.

14

Puppeting the Message

by Hope4Others in

jw
friends

quite a few years back i had various pioneer friends who were asked to give experiences at the circuit conventions.. they were to write up there experience first give it to the elder and they would go over it.. however, when it came time for this the elder who was giving the part decided to change their experience and it did not.

and was not even truthful now, it was not how it happened.

my one friend in particular was very upset about this because.

neverendingjourney

Several times I asked others in the cong how these kids were offered scholarships if they hadn't applied to college

In my area, 2 year community colleges were acceptable (not encouraged, but accepted). There were a many organizations that handed out scholarships in small amounts to help high school grads pay for community college. Typically the scholarships were for $500 or less and would often be spread out over two or more semesters. So, if I received a $500 scholarship, $250 would be applied for Semester 1's tuition and $250 would be applied for Semster 2.

Some JW kids would enroll in community college and would receive one of these scholarships since they were quite common. If the kid got fed up with school or decided it wasn't for him during the first semester of school, he could give an assembly part later and claim he turned down a scholarship (the unused 2nd semester portion). His statement would therefore not be an outright lie.

Of course, as you and others have pointed out, sometimes even these technicalities were scrapped in favor of outright lies in order to provide "encouraging" experiences. Bringing up these memories makes me want to hurl.

14

Puppeting the Message

by Hope4Others in

jw
friends

quite a few years back i had various pioneer friends who were asked to give experiences at the circuit conventions.. they were to write up there experience first give it to the elder and they would go over it.. however, when it came time for this the elder who was giving the part decided to change their experience and it did not.

and was not even truthful now, it was not how it happened.

my one friend in particular was very upset about this because.

neverendingjourney

Your experience with assembly parts is not an exception. It's typical. I gave several when I was a teenager, and I was always encouraged to embellish my story. I don't think I ever said anything that was an outright lie, but careful use of language to convey an incorrect impression was viewed upon favorably. We would meet with the circuit overseer (sometimes the district overseer) and rehearse our parts. If it didn't conform to the society's outline, he would make you change it. I saw him completely overhaul experiences, although this never happened to me.

One clever trick was saying that you had turned down a scholarship or an "opportunity" for a scholarship in order to pursue kingdom interests. What was not mentioned was that these scholarships were often for small amounts of money such as $500 or less, but the audience was left with the impression that you gave up an all-expenses paid college education to wash windows and peddle propaganda.

I gave an experience at an assembly saying I had passed up an opportunity to for a full scholarship in order to pioneer. What justified that statement? The fact that a college counselor had referred me to an organization that gave out scholarships. That's it. I never filled out an application, never directly spoke to anyone about my chances of landing one, but I carefully chose my words to convey an incorrect impression.

I've seen numerous threads on here regarding assembly experiences that contain other examples of deception and outright lies. They're fun to read.

122

Could Watchtower Collapse Be Sooner Than You Think?

by metatron in

jw
friends

there have been a number of developments over the past few months and they paint an interesting picture.. witnesses can keep dragging themselves to meetings ad infinitum however, the future of the watchtower itself is another story.

the evidence of continuing cash flow problems is now overwhelming.

if you talk to well placed witnesses, most won't deny it but simply blame it on the publishers financial problems.. they have cut off loans to congregations many of whom genuinely need new kingdom halls.

neverendingjourney

They can manuever around money issues to survive.

That's the most important point to be made. The WT may be having cash-flow problems, but that doesn't signal its collapse by any stretch of the imagination. Think about it. What would happen if they announced tomorrow that literature placement with the public would come to an end? Nothing. Things would go on as normal. JWs would place cheap tracts or find other ways to carry on field service.

122

Could Watchtower Collapse Be Sooner Than You Think?

by metatron in

jw
friends

there have been a number of developments over the past few months and they paint an interesting picture.. witnesses can keep dragging themselves to meetings ad infinitum however, the future of the watchtower itself is another story.

the evidence of continuing cash flow problems is now overwhelming.

if you talk to well placed witnesses, most won't deny it but simply blame it on the publishers financial problems.. they have cut off loans to congregations many of whom genuinely need new kingdom halls.

neverendingjourney

I remember a convention about 10 years ago when a brother on the platform told us that anything with aliens was unsuitable for Christians

That's interesting. I've certainly heard my fair share of whacky things coming from the platform, a local elder saying that cowboy hats were not appropriate comes to mind.

However, what sets Losch's comment apart is that he presumably speaks for the governing body. The GB has final say on what the rules are, what is and isn't appropriate for JWs, what is and isn't a disfellowshipping offense. The GB is supposed to speak with one voice. You know, Jehovah works through them as his channel and what not. Well, why would Losch go off on his own and make such a bold statement without the rest of the GBs backing? Is Losch a loose cannon the rest of the GB cannot control? Does he feel he doesn't need to get the backing of the GB before making such a statement? You usually don't see this kind of behavior where the leadership team is on the same page.

122

Could Watchtower Collapse Be Sooner Than You Think?

by metatron in

jw
friends

there have been a number of developments over the past few months and they paint an interesting picture.. witnesses can keep dragging themselves to meetings ad infinitum however, the future of the watchtower itself is another story.

the evidence of continuing cash flow problems is now overwhelming.

if you talk to well placed witnesses, most won't deny it but simply blame it on the publishers financial problems.. they have cut off loans to congregations many of whom genuinely need new kingdom halls.

neverendingjourney

They haven't had any new ideas in two decades

I'm fairly certain that a lot of the religion’s problems are tied to the organizational structure. Leadership by committee is a good way to maintain a large, stable organization, but it stifles innovation. It's a terrible way to head an organization that's on the decline.

There are a lot of signs that there is gridlock at the governing body level. By that I mean that there is not a sufficient consensus to get any major reforms passed, so we see a bunch of stop gap measures designed to plug holes in the dam's wall, if you will. The organization is stuck in the past. Its doctrine is out of date and nonsensical and badly in need of reform. The preaching work is useless and ineffective. To modernize the religion, a strong leader is needed to take the group in a new direction. Its leadership by committee structure inherently prevents this.

For many years, the governing body consisted of 12 members, sometimes more. It's been at nine members for a while now. This suggests that there's a power struggle at the top. Adding new members could upset the balance of power, so replacing dead GB members gets put to the side in order to avoid confrontation and preserve the peace. When it became clear that the 1935 sealing of the anointed doctrine was unworkable, they simply scrapped it. Instead of innovating and presenting some fresh interpretation of their end times eschatology, they resurrected a decades-old interpretation of the "generation" doctrine and passed it off as new light. This, to me, all suggests gridlock at the highest levels of the organization. This inability to take real leadership over the group and move it in a new direction is as responsible for its decline as anything else.

*Edited to add:

I just remembered to add that GB member Gerritt Losch is quite fond of telling crowds at U.S. conventions that American football is inappropriate for Christians, yet there's never been anything in writing backing him up. For the most part, American JWs have ignored his statements. I don't think that shows a very cohesive leadership team.

18

Mag Rumor: Desperate Measures

by metatron in

jw
friends

rumor: they are going to eliminate personal magazine orders and just hand out enough for a week.

then, you go back next week for more.. supposedly to be tested in ny and conn.. they must be getting desperate ($).

metatron.

neverendingjourney

Instead of ordering 5 of each magazine for yourself, you are told to only take what you need that week.

This makes sense, independently of whether or not it's a decision based on the current economic climate. From my experience, there were always a hand full of barely-active witnesses who would pick up a month of back magazines, or more. They were rarely seen at meetings and even less in service, so the odds that they were actually placing those magazines was low. I, myself, began to acquire a pretty large reserve of old magazines when I started to become irregular in field service. I usually dumped them off on whoever was auxiliary pioneering that month.

Handing out the magazines on a first-come-first-served basis is likely to result in a lot less waste. The inactive and barely-active folks would never cut down their magazine order. It would be interpreted as an acceptance of less than wholehearted service on their part. The profits from literature placement probably pale in comparison with the profits from the WT's vast real estate holdings. I think the day is coming when JWs ditch magazine/book placement with the public in favor of tracts and kingdom-news type propaganda.