Posts by eyeslice

26

The Next Teaching to Fall

by Blueblades in

jw
friends

while many have had their hopes dashed concerning the change on this "generation " teaching, there is yet another teaching yet to fall very soon.it must and will fall because it connected to the generation doctrine that has already been changed.. the teaching that could shortly cause the governing body a serious problem and could bring about a major change for the vast majority of the rank and file is "the great tribulation".while this teaching has been put off to the " indefinite future"the gb.continues to have a serious problem with it.if the great tribulation fails to occur reasonably soon,the doctrine concerning the earthly hope for the vast majority of jw's.will have proven to have been false.the' great crowd' are those who will have come out of the great tribulation.according to the society those persons began to be identified as present as early as 1932.so the youngest members are now in their 70's or 80's.. again, the time-line is running out!

and has the potential of adversely affecting hundreds of thousands of other witnesses in the not to distant future,as time passes without the fulfilment of their hopes for a new heavens and a new earth.. also, some time ago,there was a watchtower study article, i don't remember which one it was .it spiritualized, armageddon!

psalm 91,especially verse 7.it said that a thousand will fall at your very side and ten thousand at your right hand,applies to those leaving the org.

eyeslice

Let's tie in this thread with one I started earlier today.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=43078&site=3

I guess one of the most disturbing comments, which I must agree with, is from Pathofhorns;

"I figure as long as the WT prints magazines, there will be JW's that will believe no matter what to distibute them. Very few will join and a solid core will believe irregardless of gaping holes in doctrine until they die.

Truth matters very little to the average JW so I see the 1914 doctrine almost becoming irrelevant in the bigger picture. It should matter, but I don't think it will."

How sad and how true.

Eyeslice

3

The Spiritual Iron C urtain

by Blueblades in

jw
friends

.

the society's spiritual iron curtain is beginning to break down.it cannot keep the rank and file from reading books and other publications put out both by ex-jw's and others attacking the society root and branch.nor can it keep witnesses in the industrial world from reading similar information on the internet.further it is being undermined by a growing underground movement within the society which cooperates with so-called apostates in obtaining information,sometimes from the society"s headquarters itself, to aid in exposing its doctrines and activities.. the future for the society as they now exist --despite continued growth---does not seem bright.

blueblades

eyeslice

Hi Blueblades,

Whilst I agree with your statement regarding the "breakdown", I can't see any evidence of an 'underground movement'. I am still very much in the know, at least at local congregation level and there is no hint of this yet.

What evidence do you have?

Regards

Eyeslice

19

Will China have 1 Billion Christians????

by JT in

jw
friends

the washingtonpost carried a very powerful article on religion in china and it's growth-- for many years there is-- no god-- has been the offical position of the state- .

many persons believe that man has an inward desire to worship, while others feel it is merely a result of the suffering of man, that he looks for something better and thruout history one of the roles of religion has always been to promise it's followers a better life for temporary suffering now.

and any quick review of the lives of folks in china clearly shows that they need a hope and religion does sell hope- as jesse jackson said: "keep hope alive".

eyeslice

Perhaps not a billion!

I have lived in Asia and old traditions die hard. They are more likely to cling to their traditional values and religion than embrace Christianity.

One thing is clear though attempts to squash religion, especially by the communists, has failed. I can't see the UN turning on organised religion can you?

40

My Dad died Saturday unexpectedly...

by Nancy K in

jw
friends

hi friends, my father died saturday morning.

i want to happily say that i sent my dad a print-out of some of your key material re;org, last week and he read it all...witnesses were 'on his back' lately, and he appreciated it.

keep up the positive focus..it is so important..i wanted to write more, but i guess i'm in shock 'cause i just can't do it...thanks to all of you for your support and help with all the stuff that i've been on the board about..peace and love to all of you and your families..nk

eyeslice

Nancy,

So sorry to hear about your dad. Thoughts and prayers with you and your family.

3

Day of Jehovah in 2005?

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

today i went back to quotes' section about the year 2005 in relationship to the "day of jehovah" and the destruction of jerusalem.. http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/2005.htm.

has anyone heard anything from a jw about this?

is this something jws are speculating about like 1975?.

eyeslice

Definitely not. I am still in and in good standing, and still have good enough contact with a number of elders to know most of what is going on.

The Society has learnt its lesson about predictions. They are much more vague now a days. But, the problem is that without "guidance" regarding the future, the rank and file are confussed as to what to believe regarding "when".

18

The Thread that "kills" the WTS

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

many opinions have been expressed on this board as to what is killing the society today.

i am positive that issues such as the un scandal, the pedophile issue, etc.

are having a negative effect and contributing to a general slackening off and sense of malaise amongst the rank and file.

eyeslice

Many opinions have been expressed on this board as to what is killing the Society today. I am positive that issues such as the UN scandal, the pedophile issue, etc. are having a negative effect and contributing to a general slackening off and sense of malaise amongst the rank and file. I am also sure that these issues are being glossed over and the loyal R&F will accept the explanations and the gloss that will be used to cover over these things.

There is one teaching though, that like a thread on a woolen jumper, if picked away at, causes the whole garment to fall apart. And that is the 1914 teaching.

What a dilemma this must be causing the hierarchy. The last time that the teaching on this was changed, in 1995 with the "new light" on the generation", many fell away. But here we are seven years later, and still no further new light. And, even if there were to be new changes to this doctrine, we would only see people leaving in droves, especially the under 40's, who are the next generation of potential elder's COs, etc.

But why is this the big problem for the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and likely to be the reason for the gradual demise of the whole organization? Let's have a look at some of the "1914" facts/issues;

It is nearly 90 years since 1914. This is the equivalent to approximately 22 US presidential terms of office. Now what would you think about a President, elected to office who spent the whole of his presidency locked up in the Oval office, doing nothing but planning his next election campaign. Yet this is what is apparently happening with God's Kingdom, doing nothing, except organizing the preaching working.

The "new light" on the generation has only clouded the issue. I don't understand it and I have been in the "truth" all my life! It is easier for me to argue there have been at least 4 generations since 1914. The generation in charge during 1914, typically politicians, generals and other leaders are in their 40s, 50s and 60s. All of that generation has passed away. Then, we have had the generation from post WWI to WWII and next the "Cold War Generation". Finally, we have the generation of the late 20th Century, such as Thatcher, Regan, Bush Snr even these are passing away, being replaced by the next generation, Bush Jnr., Blair and so forth. So, I can easily list 4 generations of influential people since 1914.

If Christ's Kingdom wasn't established in 1914, the preaching work is no longer as urgent urgent. A turn around on the 1914 doctrine would not only large numbers leaving but even those who chose to stay would hardly be left zealous for preaching work. How many elders or elder's wives do you know who truly love the evangelizing work? Most I know are all too happy to skip the ministry for that all important elders' meeting.

Traditionally, Christians have believed that Christ began ruling as King over the Christian congregation at the time of his resurrection and pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Whilst, the Witnesses too believe this, they have lessened the importance of this by emphasis the coming his coming in Kingly power in 1914. Any change in emphasis would be a u-turn they couldn't simply pass off.

Without 1914, Armageddon is not likely to be just round the corner.

If Armageddon is not just round the corner, living forever on a paradise earth ,without first dying, is not going to happen for those alive today. The thought of dying in this system of things is already beginning to hit many with years of loyal devotion to the Society's teachings. Many have struggled with the thoughts and reality of their own parents' mortality and are now facing their own.

It is going to be increasing difficult to bring new ones into the truth with the current 1914 doctrine. Can you imagine study say with a young couple in their mid 20s and discussing 1914? To them 1914 must be like the dark ages! This must be an issue; I have seen virtually no new ones come into the truth over the past 10 years or so who didn't have some sort of existing family relationship or ties with some one already in the Witnesses.

Without the 1914 doctrine, there is no support for the faithful and discreet slave doctrine. This slightly undermines the authority of the Governing Body!

Without the 1914 doctrine, the Devil has not been "cast down" to the earth. The problems we see today are as they have ever been. No composite sign of the last days here then.

The 1914 doctrine must have a finite life. We approximately 10 years away from the 100th anniversary of 1914. Surely, it can't hold any water after that?

My guess is we will see no radical change to the 1914 doctrine in the near future. The new "Worship the Only True God", the book designed to study with new ones, is very vague about 1914. See my comments on this from last summer.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=33171&site=3

The rank and file will stumble on becoming less and less motivated by the preaching work and more and more unclear about the real "truth which accords with godly devotion" (Titus 1:1).

Edited by - eyeslice on 24 December 2002 9:9:30 for some pretty poor html and typos

Edited by - eyeslice on 24 December 2002 9:17:39

5

Are the F&D Slave and the Evil Slave the same?

by eyeslice in

i had a look at a thread started by veniceit yesterday, then followed a link to her story, and from something she wrote there, i have been re-reading matthew 24:45-50.. .

the society has really taught that there are in effect two separate "slave" classes; the faithful and discreet slave "class" and the evil "slave" class.

they teach that the "evil slave" originates from the single "faithful slave" by becoming apostate.. .

eyeslice

I had a look at a thread started by VeniceIT yesterday, then followed a link to her story, and from something she wrote there, I have been re-reading Matthew 24:45-50.

The Society has really taught that there are in effect two separate "slave" classes; the faithful and discreet slave "class" and the evil "slave" class. They teach that the "evil slave" originates from the single "faithful slave" by becoming apostate.

However, if I simply read this passage with no preconceived ideas, I get the impression that Jesus is only talking about a single slave, who apparently has two courses of action he can choose, which in turn leads to two differing sets of consequences.

Any other views , comments or background to the societies development of this particular doctrine on this particular passage?

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(New International Version)

Eyeslice

27

Help on translation of Lord/Jehovah in NWT

by eyeslice in

i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.

the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.

9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.

eyeslice

Many thanks for the comments and links. They are very useful - I need to do some more personal research on this subject. It seems that I have taken so much for granted up until now but the subject is extremely important to our understanding of the NT.

Eyeslice

27

Help on translation of Lord/Jehovah in NWT

by eyeslice in

i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.

the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.

9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.

eyeslice

I am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the NWT refers to Jehovah in the NT and where it should really read Lord meaning, not God, but the Lord; Jesus. The problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks Watchtower study.

The passage in question was Romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what Paul was talking about.

In the NWT, the passage reads;

8. for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. 9. For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.

Other translations, which do not attempt to substitute Gods name, render the passage along the lines of;

8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; or whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (NIV)

Hopefully, you can see my problem. I f I just consult, either the Emphatic Diaglott or The Kingdom Interlinear, the original Greek is simply Kyrios, Lord. How can I tell when the writer is referring to God and when he is referring to Christ? I can see problems here with those who believe in the trinity, it would be easy to say God and Christ are one, so it doesnt matter!

I have done a search on the site and found some interesting threads on the substitution of Jehovah for Lord in the NWT, e.g. one between Joseph-Stephen Bonnano and a professor Jason BeDuh, but they dont really address my more simple question of how can I tell who is being spoken about.

Edited by - eyeslice on 22 December 2002 13:52:27

15

My dilemma

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

i have been associated with the jws all my life, recently turning 50 years old.

i was a true believer, a hard working elder, very zealous for the truth, a pillar in the congregation, and a fine speaker and teacher.

i even served in an extremely difficult foreign land for a while with my family.. i always knew we had our problems, but felt that it was my responsibility to effect change from within.

eyeslice

I am very much at the cross-roads now. I have been associated with the JWs all my life, recently turning 50 years old. I was a true believer, a hard working elder, very zealous for the truth, a pillar in the congregation, and a fine speaker and teacher. I even served in an extremely difficult foreign land for a while with my family.

I always knew we had our problems, but felt that it was my responsibility to effect change from within. I have always been very liberal, willing to forgive and always looking for way to stop ones from being dissfellowshipped wherever possible. However, the hardliners eventually caught up with me and I stood down as an elder over a minor incident with one of my kids. There was no immorality or other dissfellowshipping offences involved, but I was given a really hard time and aspersions were made regarding my qualifications to continue as an elder. So now I find myself on the fringes as it were.

So here is my dilemma, my personal reading of the Bible just lately has made me realise many new things, such as the role that Jesus plays in our salvation, that Christ commanded his followers to be his witnesses, not Jehovahs Witnessess, and that followers of Christ would eat of his flesh and drink his blood. Also, I can find nothing in my Bible that links the other sheep with the Great Crowd of Revelation. The invitation that Jesus extended was to become part of one flock, under the love and grace of himself as the fine shepherd.

Sounds like I need a new religion? I know, however, that if I go to any church, be it traditional and conservative, or more on the evangelical side, I would be instantly disfellowshipped. That would be a big problem for me, because my wife and many of my family are still in the organization. And, I am not saying I want to join another organized religion but I would like to at least experience the alternatives.

Another twist is that I am likely to be recommended for re-appointment as elder again soon.

So my options are;

1. Stay on the fringes
2. Stay, get re-appointed as an elder and carry on the fight. There are ones who still need love and care; the elderly, the widows and orphans, those with spiritual and emotional needs
3. Slowly fade, doing nothing spiritual
4. Look to fill my spiritual needs outside and get disfellowshipped.

A hard choice still needs to be made.