There is a very big problem with the role of Christ within the WTB&TS. You need only look over at what has been studied at the book study for past couple of years (book about Daniel and Isaiah) and the Watchtower over the past month or so (about the book of Micah). It appears that we can have weeks and weeks of study without ever mentioning the name Jesus or looking at his example.
A couple of obvious things that puts Christ very much in the back seat:
1. The name Jehovah?s Witnesses. The average witness understands what is needed to be a witness of Jehovah, his name, his sovereignty, etc. However, to Christians Christ said, ?you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.". So, Christians were commissioned to be Jesus? Witnesses not Jehovah?s Witnesses.
2. The fact that the average Witness has an ?earthly? hope. This means that they do not consider themselves actually to be Christ?s brothers and sisters. This results in most of the NT having very little meaning for the average witness; e.g. the whole of the gospel of John with its ?born again?, ?eat my flesh and drink my blood?.
Eyeslice
eyeslice
JoinedPosts by eyeslice
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Where is Jesus?
by AuntieJane indid any of you who came into the dubs as adults ask this question, since jc is "stifled" by the jw "bible", the nwt.??
if so, what kind of answers did you get?
if not, did you think it odd that this so-called christian organization didn't preach in christ's name?
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eyeslice
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Remember the slide rule?
by JH indid you ever work with this contraption?
when i was young, i used it in school.
did you ever use this, and do you still remember how it works?.
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eyeslice
I still keep my slide rule in my desk! It reminds me of how much things have changed in my lifetime.
I was taught how to use one in school (early 1970s) and then went on to use one every day at work when I worked in biochemistry for a while.
Like Amazing, I also had a circular slide rule but I must have lost at some point.
The first electronic calculator I had cost the equivalent of a week’s wage. Since about that time I have worked in computing, programming in everything from COBOL to what I use today, Java.
Going off topic slightly, who remembers using log tables? I used to put a little mark under every value I looked up, hoping I guess one day to lay claim to having looked up every single log value! I can’t think I ever did manage that feat though.
Eyeslice -
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eyeslice
When I served as an elder I was always disturbed by the often blatant hypocrisy displayed when considering others for recommendation as elders. On a number of occasions I had to speak out about judging others with a measuring line that many on the body would not measure up to.
Typical scenarios;
Elder Never-Seen-Out-In-The-Ministry: How’s his field service?
Elder My-Wife’s-Never-Out-And-Is-A-Nervous-Wreck: How’s his family doing?
Elder Boring-Talks: I think he needs a little longer to work on his platform teaching.
Interestingly, in 1972 when the new elder arrangement came out, I was 20 years old and was immediately appointed a MS. However, I had been giving public talks since I was 18, was taking a congregation book study and had been assistant school servant.
The problem with today’s regime is that young talent is never given a chance. You have to be staid and stuck in your ways before you will ever be considered for any ‘privileges’. All the prime jobs have already been stitched up by the boring, uninspiring old bums.
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John 1:1 for nonbelievers.....
by logansrun ini've often felt that the most objective person in a situation is the one who has no stake in the outcome.
this holds true to religious issues as well.
we all know freddie franz translated john 1:1 as "the word was [a] god" and the rest of the christian world flew through the roof.
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eyeslice
One of the best commentaries on the Gospel of John I have come across is by William Barclay. He was an eminent Bible scholar and expert in Greek. He says this about John 1:1:
“This is a difficult saying for us to understand, and it is difficult because Greek, in which John wrote, had a different way of saying things from the way in which English expresses them. Where Greek uses a noun, it almost always uses the definite article with it. The Greek for God is theos and the definite article is ho. When Greek speaks about God, it does not simply say theos, it says ho theos. Now when the Greek does not use the definite article with a noun, that noun becomes much more like an adjective. John did not say that the Word was ho theos; that would have been to say that the Word was identical with God. He said that the Word was those – without the definite article – which means that the Word was, we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God. When John said the Word was God, he was not saying that Jesus was identical with God; he was saying that Jesus was so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart and in being that in him we see what God is like.”
My personal view therefore is that the NWT is incorrect in translating the word was “a god”. The Bible describes Satan as a god (“the god of this system”)! Other translations have used expressions such as “the Word was God like” or “the Word was divine”. It would have been better to have to have translated exactly as the Greek rendered it, was God, and then given a clear explanation as to what John meant.
Another example of the NWT taking things too far in trying to put a “spin” on what the Greek actual says, is the translation of Jesus words “this means my body”, “this means my blood”, when the Greek clearly says “this is”. But that’s another story.
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When did Jesus die Nisan 14/15/20 or other?
by eyeslice inoften as witnesses, we were told of people who started studying the bible (in reality wt literature) and were amazed at what they learned.
you know the sort of thing i mean i have been going to church for years and never knew that.. .
however, in my recent studies, particularly of the book of john, i have felt the same way.
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eyeslice
Often as witnesses, we were told of people who started studying the Bible (in reality WT literature) and were amazed at what they learned. You know the sort of thing I mean – “I have been going to church for years and never knew that”.
However, in my recent studies, particularly of the book of John, I have felt the same way. There is so much in that gospel that I was never told about or knew. The background to it and why perhaps John wrote it (possibly to combat the rise of Gnosticism). I can see why the Witnesses have a problem with it, it addresses the deity of Jesus and if you do not see yourself having the faith in Christ that means you are spiritually re-born, then 99% of it makes little sense to you. Personally, I am not sure where I stand at the moment, I certainly am not born again but I would not say I am an unbeliever.
Anyway, back to the subject of this thread. One of the problems with the fourth gospel is that it appears to put a totally different time frame round the events surrounding the last supper. Mark undoubtedly wished to show the last meal as a Passover meal and that Jesus was executed on Passover day; and Matthew and Luke follow Mark.
On the other hand, John is quite clear that Jesus was executed on the day before the Passover. He begins his account, “now before the festival of the Passover …” (John 13:1) When Judas left the upper room, they thought he had gone to prepare for the festival (of the Passover?). (John 13:29). The Jews would not enter the judgement hall lest they should become unclean and be prevented from eating the Passover (John 18:28). The judgement was during the preparation for the Passover (John 19:14).
Now the Society is very sketchy about this, and the best explanation they come up with is that the whole Passover festival was referred to as the Passover and that there was a ‘great Sabbath’ and this is really what the ‘preparation’ was for; not the actual Passover. They quote a publication; The Temple, 1874, pp. 186, 187; so not exactly an up to date work of research.
What I really need is someone to have a go at putting together an actual chronology for the period Nisan 13/14/15 in some sort table that is easy to read. Now there’s a challenge!
I know this issue has been raised a few times and although I have searched this site and read related threads, I would be interested in new comments and pointers to existing threads. -
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Are you blind?
by eyeslice ini am sure that many of us, even when we were in the truth, were uncomfortable with the notion that we had all the answers, but others just could not see the light.. i came across this great persian story today that illustrates the folly of thinking we have the only view of what is true.
incidentally, for those who have read his works, although it sounds like a deepak chopra story, it isnt.
it is a story told by an old persian scholar who lived and worked in delhi, india.. ==============================================================================.
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eyeslice
Stan
The expression "truth" was meant to be in inverted commas but unfortuntately on my original post I forgot to un-tick the HTML formatting box.
Anyway, point taken.
eyeslice
Edited by - eyeslice on 25 January 2003 17:12:28
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Are you blind?
by eyeslice ini am sure that many of us, even when we were in the truth, were uncomfortable with the notion that we had all the answers, but others just could not see the light.. i came across this great persian story today that illustrates the folly of thinking we have the only view of what is true.
incidentally, for those who have read his works, although it sounds like a deepak chopra story, it isnt.
it is a story told by an old persian scholar who lived and worked in delhi, india.. ==============================================================================.
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eyeslice
I am sure that many of us, even when we were in the truth, were uncomfortable with the notion that we had all the answers, but others just could not see the light.
I came across this great Persian story today that illustrates the folly of thinking we have the only view of what is true. Incidentally, for those who have read his works, although it sounds like a Deepak Chopra story, it isnt. It is a story told by an old Persian scholar who lived and worked in Delhi, India.
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Somewhere to the north of Afghanistan there was a city inhabited entirely by the blind. One day the news came that an elephant was passing outside the walls of the city.The citizens called a meeting and decided to send a delegation of three men outside the gates so that they could report back what an elephant was. In due course, the three men left the town and stumbled forwards until they eventually found the elephant. The three reached out, felt the animal with their hands, then they all headed back to the town as quickly as they could to report what the had felt.
The first man said: an elephant is a marvellous creature! It is like a vast snake, but it can stand vertically upright in the air! The second man was indignant at hearing this: What nonsense! he said. This man is misleading you. I felt the elephant and what it resembles most is a pillar. It is firm and solid and however hard you push against it you could never knock it over. The third man shook his head and said: both these men are liars! I felt the elephant and it resembles a large broad fan. It is wide and flat and leathery and when you shake it it wobbles like the sail of boat.
All three men stuck by their stories and for the rest of their lives and refused to speak to each other. Each professed that they and only they knew the whole truth.
Now of course all three men had a measure of insight. The first man felt the trunk of the elephant, the second the leg, the third the ear. All had part of the truth, but not one of them had even begun to grasp the totality or the vastness of the beast they had encountered. If only they had listened to one another and meditated on the different facets of the elephant, they might have realized the true nature of the beast. But they were too proud and instead they preferred to keep to their own half truths.
So it is with us, what we forget is that before God we are like blind men stumbling around in total darkness.
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I have got a couple of other stories; If any are interested Ill write them up.eyeslice
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Has anyone else asked this question about blood?
by eyeslice inabout a year ago, even though we had not been issued with no blood cards, there was some talk about filling in and signing the health care advanced directive.. for those who havent seen this document, it is quite detailed and specific about what blood fractions an individual will accept.
so basically, it states the individual will under no circumstances accept whole blood or its major components, but may accept what could be quite a long list of minor blood fractions.. so here is the tricky question(s) i asked one of our local elders.
q. you understand that these so called minor components are extracted from donated human blood and often it takes many pints of this human blood to produce just a small amount of these fractions?.
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eyeslice
About a year ago, even though we had not been issued with No Blood Cards, there was some talk about filling in and signing the Health Care Advanced Directive.
For those who havent seen this document, it is quite detailed and specific about what blood fractions an individual will accept. So basically, it states the individual will under no circumstances accept whole blood or its major components, but may accept what could be quite a long list of minor blood fractions.
So here is the tricky question(s) I asked one of our local elders.
Q. You understand that these so called minor components are extracted from donated human blood and often it takes many pints of this human blood to produce just a small amount of these fractions?
A. Yes
Q. Is it acceptable for a witness to donate blood?
A. No
Q. But what if a brother or sister is dying and needs one of these minor fractions and whose conscience allows him/her to accept these but there is a shortage of blood, then is it wrong for me to donate blood? If it is, isnt it an extremely selfish stand to make that says we will accept something we would not give ourselves?
A. Dont know the answer to that one
Has anyone here also asked this, especially to someone on a HLC? If so what was the answer?
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The Prodigal Son and JW Justice
by eyeslice init was towards the end of 1998 that i believe there was a watchtower article on the prodigal son.. about that time, i handled a number of problematic judicial cases and got to wondering about the rightness of elders judging others.
before each case, elders are instructed to read certain chapters of the shepherding book, but my opinion was, they would be better re-reading the parable of the prodigal son.. lets look at some of the points from the parable and compare it with jw justice.. 1. the prodigal was never judged and condemned by his father immediately after leaving home.
there is no indication that he would have at anytime been shunned by his father and family.
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eyeslice
Rebel and BluesBrothers,
I can understand both your points of view.
Ray Franz in COC well describes how he got caught along with even being on the governing body, but in the end, making a stand becomes a matter of principle and conscience.
Though I was part of the judicial system, the question I always asked myself was; "if I had lived in the days of the Spainish Inquisition, would I have agreed with torturing and murdering people in the name of Christ?". I am sure there were some "sincere" inquisitors and possibly some of them were good men in their own way. But they allowed religious ferver to blind their consciences.
I believe some elders, by no means all or a majority, would be the sort that could go along with inquisitorial atrocities if they believed this was truely what the organization demanded of them. Others like myself and BluesBrother come to point a point where we have to say; "stop, this organization has gone too far".
eyeslice
Edited by - eyeslice on 22 January 2003 17:21:14
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The Prodigal Son and JW Justice
by eyeslice init was towards the end of 1998 that i believe there was a watchtower article on the prodigal son.. about that time, i handled a number of problematic judicial cases and got to wondering about the rightness of elders judging others.
before each case, elders are instructed to read certain chapters of the shepherding book, but my opinion was, they would be better re-reading the parable of the prodigal son.. lets look at some of the points from the parable and compare it with jw justice.. 1. the prodigal was never judged and condemned by his father immediately after leaving home.
there is no indication that he would have at anytime been shunned by his father and family.
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eyeslice
It was towards the end of 1998 that I believe there was a Watchtower article on the prodigal son.
About that time, I handled a number of problematic judicial cases and got to wondering about the rightness of elders judging others. Before each case, elders are instructed to read certain chapters of the Shepherding book, but my opinion was, they would be better re-reading the parable of the prodigal son.
Lets look at some of the points from the parable and compare it with JW justice.
1. The prodigal was never judged and condemned by his father immediately after leaving home. There is no indication that he would have at anytime been shunned by his father and family. True, he had taken his share of the inheritance, perhaps not a wise choice, but nevertheless it was his decision and he was granted it.
2. There is no indication that the family was slighted by the prodigals decision or felt their name had been dragged through the mud.
3. When at his lowest condition, was it repentance or human need that leads to his returning to his family? The answer to this seems fairly obvious, his reasoning was why stay here, I would be better off at home.
4. His father accepted his return unconditionally, and indeed, made the first move to welcome and restore him to his position in the household.
Now compare this with JW justice;
1. Anyone who leaves the spiritual home is regarded as leaven, and a possible source of contamination to the flock. Your son or daughter is slightly rebellious, and you are perceived to have major issue and crisis on your hands.
2. At the first hint of trouble, people are often distanced if not completely shunned. I have seen this time and again, where the excuse is given; we dont want any shame coming on the congregation or Jehovahs name. It is often forgotten that a person is innocent until proved guilty.3. Only unreserved repentance is acceptable. Mitigating circumstances are rarely acceptable as factors that might have influenced a course of action. For example, suppose a married sister runs of with another brother. Rarely is basic question, why, really answered. Did actual sexual intercourse take place, where and how often? may be the sorts of questions asked in establishing the facts of a matter. But the underlying reasons as to why people are sometimes so desperately unhappy are rarely probed. My experience at least of sexually immorality, is that it is invariably associated with wretched unhappiness. The problem with the narrow view of things is that the question, would you do it all over again, often can only be answered yes, indicating a perceived lack of true repentance.
4. The onus for restoring a relationship with God is placed solely on the individual. The reality is that the Scriptures speak about the shepherd who goes looking for a lost sheep and the woman who turns her house upside down to look for a lost coin. How many times have those of us who were former elders been told to stay out of things because the case was too complex or to notorious? I have seen disfellowshipped ones come along regularly to the Kingdom Hall, in some cases for years, without being allowed back into the congregation. When enquiring as to why, I was told what they did (presumably adultery) caused so many problems, so just stay out of it. The idea that any spiritual sin elicits a fix term punishment, like a criminal might have handed down to him, is not found in the Bible.
Anyway, if you feel up to it, read Luke chapter 15 and then check the internet for the chapters from the shepherding book on handling judicial matters which elders are instructed to read before each case. Which makes more sense to you?
eyeslice