B_Deserter

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Posts by B_Deserter

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  45

  Questiions that JW's can not answer

  by TooBad TooSad in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i was an elder for 10 years.

  there were some questions that i was asked by the flock which.

  i could not answer.

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  B_Deserter

  I think the standard JW answer to all of these would be "we don't really know the details, but Jehovah will set everything straight. We'll just have to wait and see!" It doesn't really answer the question, but if I were asked those questions as a dub that's what I would have said.
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  12

  QFR: New light on Annointed? No more Holy Spirit than the rest of us?

  by WingCommander in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  question for all of those in the know:.

  i've been getting snipits of info on some threads concerning some possible "new light" that was supposedly in a recent questions from readers.

  from what i could briefly gather, it states that the annointed don't have any more "holy spirit" inside them than do the great crowd.

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  B_Deserter

  One thing I never understood about the "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?" interpretation is that they start off saying that the whole congregation can't be the slave because multiple people can't handle ALL of the belongings. Yet, they turn around and say that it's the FDS "class" or the 144,000. Wtf? 144,000 is more than one person.
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  27

  The Pecking Order of Jehovah's Witnesses

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  where were you in the pecking order??

  jws pride themselves as being different from "worldly" organizations and other religions.

  they claim to have no clergy/laity groups.

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  B_Deserter

  Old puritanical or perverted Governing Body members >>
  Inept Bethel Departments >>
  District Overseers >>
  Circuit Overseers >>
  Gilead Missionaries (when home to visit friends and family) >>
  Rich/Former Bethelite Elders >>
  Rich/former Bethelite congregation members >>
  Elders wives that only get moist for the latest gossip >>
  Poor elders >>
  Bethelites (when visiting home) >>
  Pimply-faced, inexperienced Ministerial Servants on a power trip >>
  Pioneer daughters of elders looking to become future Elderettes by marrying a Pimply-face, inexperienced Ministerial Servants on a power trip >>
  Pioneer non-Ministerial servants desperately clinging to the futile hope that they will one day attract Pioneer daughters of elders >>
  Children of elders who visit foreign countries under the guise of "serving where the need is greater" but really only go there to flirt with the opposite sex >>
  Everyone else in the congregation not part of the "in" crowd >>
  Bethelites (when at Bethel working as live-in slaves) >>
  Gilead Missionaries (when out at their "assignments")
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  8

  Did all those refreshing moments/ideas make you cringe?

  by Younglove1999 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have to admit- the idea of having to live forever and having to continue going to meetings 1,000 times a week and studying "the new scrolls" sounded so annoying and tiring and not at all refreshing and exciting!

  i honestly did not look forward to "it" .

  when discussing how exciting going to assemblies and conventions would be and how we'd always leave feeling rejuvinated and happy, i never did.

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  B_Deserter

  "How many people did you ever hear say they felt refreshed and rejuvinated after an assembly??? Most people were only happy when the closing prayer was over!"
  
  I wouldn't know, I was always halfway to the parking lot by the time that last long-winded prayer got finished. One convention, the brother gave a SEVEN MINUTE prayer. Seriously. I wish they'd apply the "keep it short and simple" counsel but I guess when the crowd surpasses 5,000, massive showboating is necessary.
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  2

  Farting Preacher

  by B_Deserter in

  1. social
  2. humour

  you've seen this right?

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3gjzce9bwq

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  B_Deserter

  You've seen this right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3gJzCe9BwQ
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  22

  "How Cults Work" -- A Comparison with Jehovah's Witnesses.

  by B_Deserter in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  these are selected comments regarding the article posted here: http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult.htm.

  there is no meaningful difference between a cult and a religion in terms of faith, morality or spirituality.

  the primary differences are that a "cult" operates outside of mainstream society, often calls on its followers to make an absolute commitment to the group and typically has a single leader, whereas a "religion" usually operates within mainstream culture, requires varying levels of commitment from its members and typically has a leadership hierarchy that, in practice, can serve as a series of checks and balances.. jws definitely operate outside of mainstream society.

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  B_Deserter

  I disagree. "high Control Group" has been applied to scientologists and Mormons as well. I think the main difference between a Cult and a HCG is the latter has simply grown too large to be under the control of a single, charismatic leader.
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  36

  Defending outspoken atheism

  by serotonin_wraith in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well vinny and probably some others have come to wonder about the purpose of outspoken atheism, especially when it is presented in a rude manner.

  here's my thoughts on the matter.. many of us here will have relatives who are jehovah's witnesses.

  we want them to escape from that cult.

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  B_Deserter

  I was listening to the Skepticality podcast with the people from Rational Response Squad and they were talking about the need for Atheists to be more outspoken in order to combat the hard-line, loud evangelicals that are slowly but surely trying to strip away freedom of choice for all Americans. The fact that RRS is so loud and outspoken is the only reason they were given air time by ABC to debate. The outspokenness raises awareness about the issues.
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  22

  "How Cults Work" -- A Comparison with Jehovah's Witnesses.

  by B_Deserter in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  these are selected comments regarding the article posted here: http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult.htm.

  there is no meaningful difference between a cult and a religion in terms of faith, morality or spirituality.

  the primary differences are that a "cult" operates outside of mainstream society, often calls on its followers to make an absolute commitment to the group and typically has a single leader, whereas a "religion" usually operates within mainstream culture, requires varying levels of commitment from its members and typically has a leadership hierarchy that, in practice, can serve as a series of checks and balances.. jws definitely operate outside of mainstream society.

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  B_Deserter

  I agree. I definitely wouldn't throw JWs in with the Heaven's Gate people or the Branch Davidians. They still hold a lot of cult-like tendencies, and many label them as a "high control group" instead of a full-blown cult.
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  22

  "How Cults Work" -- A Comparison with Jehovah's Witnesses.

  by B_Deserter in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  these are selected comments regarding the article posted here: http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult.htm.

  there is no meaningful difference between a cult and a religion in terms of faith, morality or spirituality.

  the primary differences are that a "cult" operates outside of mainstream society, often calls on its followers to make an absolute commitment to the group and typically has a single leader, whereas a "religion" usually operates within mainstream culture, requires varying levels of commitment from its members and typically has a leadership hierarchy that, in practice, can serve as a series of checks and balances.. jws definitely operate outside of mainstream society.

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  B_Deserter

  These are selected comments regarding the article posted here: http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult.htm
  
  

  There is no meaningful difference between a cult and a religion in terms of faith, morality or spirituality. The primary differences are that a "cult" operates outside of mainstream society, often calls on its followers to make an absolute commitment to the group and typically has a single leader, whereas a "religion" usually operates within mainstream culture, requires varying levels of commitment from its members and typically has a leadership hierarchy that, in practice, can serve as a series of checks and balances.

  JWs definitely operate outside of mainstream society. Anything not part of Witness culture is "worldly," and Witnesses are often told to "shun the world." The absolute commitment is also a key indentifying mark of the religion. In most other churches, if you attend the services of another religion, you will not be subject to sanctions. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, just one visit to a different church will result in expulsion and shunning from the entire congregation. Friendships outside the organization are also forbidden.

  It's really a two-part problem. First, many of these religions are founded by a single person who retains a position of exclusive power within the organization, and power tends to corrupt even the most ethical among us.

  Russell, Rutherford, Knorr, Franz, Henschel, Jaracz, etc. etc.

  In addition to this authoritarian leadership structure, some primary characteristics of a destructive cult include:
  
  

  • Charismatic leadership - "ADVERTISE!!! ADVERTISE!!! ADVERTISE!!!
  • Deception in recruiting - Not many witnesses will tell you about the disfellowshipping, oral sex, reading non-Watchtower research materials, changes in doctrine, etc.
  • Use of thought-reform methods - "Put on the new personality!
  • Isolation (physical and/or psychological) - Must be "no part of the world"
  • Demand for absolute, unquestioning devotion and loyalty - The Faithful and Discreet Slave is God's messenger on earth. Questioning them, even when they're wrong, is a disfellowshippable offense.
  • Sharp, unsurpassable distinction between "us" (good, saved) and "them" (bad, going to Hell) - There are only Jehovah's Witnesses and "Babylon the Great"
  • "Inside language" that only members fully understand - JWs have an extensive jargon repertoire: the truth, of the annointed, apostate, Kingdom hall, etc.
  • Strict control over members' daily routines - There are lots of parts about dressing like a Christian outside of "spiritual activities." The last large conventions even banned jeans, t-shirts, and shorts after the program, although VERY few witnesses complied

  There is no cult without a powerful, charismatic leader. A charismatic leader has the uncanny ability to get people to follow him unquestioningly. The phrase "cult of personality" refers to this type of group dynamic. Cult members are devoted to the leader, not to the leader's ideas. The leader has complete control over his followers -- there is no questioning of his decisions, and he is accountable to no one within the group.

  Rutherford definitely filled this role. Currently, the nameless, faceless "organization" most definitely counts as a "charismatic leader." They are accountable to no one, and questioning of the doctrines provided in the "spiritual food" is prohibited.

  Cult members come from all walks of life, all age groups and all personality types. However, one common thread among most cult recruits is heightened stress: Research indicates that a majority of people who end up joining a cult were recruited during a particularly stressful period.

  The main focus of the Witness ministry is to find those who are "sighing and groaning over this system of things." When someone is going through a bad time in their lives, they are more open to suggestion. JWs often have specially-written tracts for a variety of traumatic occurrences. Well-adjusted individuals often do not have any need for what the Witnesses are peddling, which often keeps them away from the Kingdom Halls. Instead, they are filled with people who have "come out of the world" into an environment where they instantly have 100 or more "friends." Their lives are instantly improved, and provide a good "example" for young ones curious about the world, since they'll be the first ones to discourage them from that curiosity.

  Michael Langone, Ph.D., a psychologist who specializes in cults, also identifies some psychological traits that can make a person more likely to be successfully recruited, including:
  
  

  • dependency - an intense desire to belong, stemming from a lack of self-confidence - I personally have experienced this all my life. I have a pathological fear of not being accepted, which has developed into full-blown social anxiety disorder
  • unassertiveness - a reluctance to say no or question authority - Again, I experience his regularly. I have a very difficult time saying no to people or confronting them
  • gullibility - a tendency to believe what someone says without really thinking about it - Used to have that problem, but now have come full circle into a healthy skepticism
  • low tolerance for uncertainty - a need to have any question answered immediately in black-and-white terms - Again, had problems when I was in the organization, now not so much
  • disillusionment with the status quo - a feeling of marginalization within one's own culture and a desire to see that culture change
  • naive idealism - a blind belief that everyone is good
  • desire for spiritual meaning - a need to believe that life has a "higher purpose"

  Instead, recruiters portray it as something mainstream, low-pressure and benign.

  JWs often tell people they are "normal, just like everybody else." Except that they don't celebrate holidays and will not even associate with anyone other than church members.

  Also, cults typically isolate recruits so they can't get a "reality check." They may hold meetings or services at times that would normally be spent with family and friends; they may hold "retreats" that submerge the recruit in the group's message for days at a time; and they may ask recruits not to discuss the group with others until they know more about it, so they don't mislead people or give them only part of the story.

  Meetings several times a week? Check. "Retreats" that submerge the recruit in the group's message for days at a time? District Conventions definitely qualify. The only difference here is that new recruits are encouraged to tell other people about what they're "learning."

  This kind of isolation narrows a person's feedback structure drastically for a period of time, to the point that the only people they're really communicating with are the members of the cult they're being invited to join. Their doubts about the group, therefore, are never reinforced, and they end up turning into self-doubt, instead. Looking around them at all of the smiling, friendly people who have obviously found peace and happiness by following this path, it appears that it must be the right way.

  Jehovah's Witnesses MUST be right because everybody is sooo HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't think about all the anti-depressants everyone is on! We're HAPPY because we're Jehovah's HAPPY people! Being HAPPY!! means we're right!

  Once a person attends one meeting or service or lecture, he's invited to another, and another and another. He's welcomed into the cult family and invited to commit himself to the group. From day one, it's a process of manipulation and deception. And for those who stay on, the recruiting process culminates in the submission of their own personalities to the "will of the group."

  The object of a "bible study" is to get the "student" baptised and in the group.

  Isolation - Cults cut off members from the outside world (and even each other) to produce intense introspection, confusion, loss of perspective and a distorted sense of reality. The members of the cult become the person's only social contact and feedback mechanism. - Check

  • Cults may keep new recruits from talking to other new recruits. They may only be allowed to speak with long-committed members for a period of time.
  • Cults may not allow unsupervised contact with the "outside world." In this way, there is no chance for a "reality check" or validation of a new member's concerns regarding the group.
  • Cults typically instill the belief that "outsiders" (non-cult members) are dangerous and wrong. - Remember folks, friendship with the world is enmity with God. Who is the world? Everyone but us. They're Babylon the Great

  Induced Dependency - Cults demand absolute, unquestioning devotion, loyalty and submission. A cult member's sense of self is systematically destroyed. Ultimately, feelings of worthlessness and "evil" become associated with independence and critical thinking, and feelings of warmth and love become associated with unquestioning submission.

  Yes, guard against independent thinking. It is of the Devil!

  Dread - Once complete dependence is established, the member must retain the leader's good favor or else his life falls apart.

  If you leave Jehovah's Organization, you will be tossed out into the EVIL WORLD that will CHEW YOU UP AND SPIT YOU OUT!!!
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  16

  Blame the WTBTS

  by REBORNAGAIN in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  how many of you know of instances where total devotion to the borg resorted in financial ruin?.

  here is an example of what one family i knew had to do to survive:.

  and this family is still in the borg.

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  B_Deserter

  I remember always being told that Jehovah would NEVER allow pioneers to starve. Dumpster-diving, however, is pretty damn close in my book.