Posts by Pallbearer

33

At what point, does one become apostate to the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

at what point does a jehovah’s witness cease to be a jehovah’s witness?

what if a witness doesn't believe some of the official teachings of the governing body but remains silent on these subjects to avoid being disfellowshipped?

is he or she an apostate to the faith?

Pallbearer

Up above, nicolaou quoted blondie as having said:

The WTS notes that the minor children of the people who died at the flood died forever.

Then nicolaou replied:

Hi blondie. I don't doubt you are being accurate but do you have any references for this? Thanks.

I am certain that blondie spoke accurately. As far back as I can remember, the WTS has never held out any hope for ANYONE that died in the Flood of Noah’s day, nor for ANYBODY that dies at Armageddon. In contrast, the Watchtower cites biblical evidence that there is hope for the peoples of Sodom and Gomorrah, that they will be resurrected. Personally, I find it extremely difficult to accept the WTS’s view, because children in particular have never committed anything as gross as what the peoples of Sodom and Gomorrah had practiced.

33

At what point, does one become apostate to the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

at what point does a jehovah’s witness cease to be a jehovah’s witness?

what if a witness doesn't believe some of the official teachings of the governing body but remains silent on these subjects to avoid being disfellowshipped?

is he or she an apostate to the faith?

Pallbearer

Vidiot said:

"If you follow the logic in the confidential elders’ handbook, “Shepherding the Flock of God”, you technically become an “apostate” the moment you think the Governing Body is wrong about something."

I seriously doubt that! Can you supply proof for what you claim, Vidiot? A wild assertion doesn’t prove anything.

33

At what point, does one become apostate to the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

at what point does a jehovah’s witness cease to be a jehovah’s witness?

what if a witness doesn't believe some of the official teachings of the governing body but remains silent on these subjects to avoid being disfellowshipped?

is he or she an apostate to the faith?

Pallbearer

NOTE:

In my post above I failed to enclose Tonus's remark in quotation marks, which may have created confusion. Sorry 'bout that, and I'll try to be more perfect next time.

:

33

At what point, does one become apostate to the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

at what point does a jehovah’s witness cease to be a jehovah’s witness?

what if a witness doesn't believe some of the official teachings of the governing body but remains silent on these subjects to avoid being disfellowshipped?

is he or she an apostate to the faith?

Pallbearer

If you are a loyal JW, but you differ on a point or two, are you opposing the WTS/GB? Does it require action (telling others about it) or is it enough that you believe that they have it wrong? What if they change the teaching later? Were you an apostate for having it right when they had it wrong?

________________________________

If you don't mind me saying so . . .

In any Organization there is a need for leadership, hence the reason for the Governing Body. The 9 members on the GB recognize that they are not perfect and can therefore make mistakes. For this reason, if someone genuinely believes that the GB has a mistaken view on some matter the Watchtower has said in print that "suggestions for improvement are proper". Why a person should take that route is for two primary reasons, regardless of who it is that has the correct view: 1) It's the only course of action that can bring about a change of thinking or doctrine. 2) If the person were to tell other people about his/her diverse view there is the chance that it could result in stumbling them or it could create disunity in the Congregation. The Scriptures say that Christians should be fitly united in the same line of thought, and that there should be no divisions.

.

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Pallbearer

Hello Sea Breeze,

You said:

O man, who art thou that repliest against God?....Hath not the potter power over the clay...?
Who are we to call God unreasonable?

I know of no one who has called God unreasonable in this thread. As for myself, I believe God to be nothing but reasonable, and for that reason I am inclined to understand the verse at 2 Peter 3:10 in a figurative sense.

The EARTH will become "new" by way of sin and imperfection having been eradicated from among mankind. First in order, the present system of government (as ruled by men) will have to be removed and replaced by a government ruled by Jesus Christ. Jesus is to rule over the earth for 1,000 years. This will be a great educational period, during which time people will prove themselves to be either a sheep or a goat symbolically speaking. (Matthew 25:31-46) Only the sheep will be accounted as holy and will live forever. The goats will be persons who refuse to adhere to the King Jesus' instructions, one of the two most important of which is: You MUST love your neighbor as yourself." After Jesus has completed his reign all of mankind will have become holy, pure, sinless. Thus the earth will have become just like it was before Adam and Eve sinned. This is the way the earth will have become "new" and paradise will have been "regained".

The HEAVENS will become "new" by way of Satan and the angels that sided with him being cast into the symbolic lake of fire (picturing everlasting death). The reason that these will need to die forever is because they are proven to be incorrigible (meaning that they refuse to be corrected). With Satan and his angels having been forever removed from the angelic realm, their heaven will have become just like it was before Satan turned to badness. Thus, once again every angel will be holy, pure, sinless. This is the way the heavens will have become "new".

Thanks again for your participation, Sea Breeze.

Paul

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Pallbearer

Thanks for replying, Sea Breeze. In regards to the issue surrounding 2 Peter 3:10 is it not the duty of a believer to determine whether the verse should be understood in a literal sense or not, based on REASON? If applied in a literal sense, do we wind up with something that's REASONABLE?

So let's analyze the verse. If God is going to literally do away with the heavens and replace them with a new heavens, what must that amount to? Well, to begin with we know that in addition to earth there are 7 other planets out there that are part of our solar system. And I must say that the photos that NASA has taken of them are outright astounding! You have probably seen these photos yourself. Having viewed them, do you really think it is REASONABLE that God would destroy our sun and the earth plus the other 7 planets? What REASON would he have for doing so?

And I do know that within my lifetime astronomers have discovered that there are countless galaxies in the vastness of space. And they know that each galaxy is composed of countless "stars" which are actually suns that are not unlike our own sun that planet earth revolves around. And what's more astounding is that they have recently found evidence of planets revolving around at least one of the so-called "stars" in our Milky Way galaxy that I know of. Wow, another solar system has been discovered!

I just did a little bit of quick research and this is what I read in regards to how many solar systems and how many planets that scientists estimate there are in just our Milky Way galaxy alone:

"Scientists have estimated that there could be tens of billions of solar systems in our Milky Way galaxy alone. Many believe that there might be as many as 100 billion."

"NASA estimates that there are at least 100 billion planets in our Milky Way alone. Others estimated that the Milky Way galaxy might have anywhere between 100 to 200 billion planets."

Is it REASONABLE that God would destroy these billions of solar systems and billions of planets that he has created?

And, so far, we have only taken into account the material part of the heavens. Yes, in the heavens, there is also the spiritual (or angelic) realm that must be accounted for. Is it REASONABLE that God would destroy the angel's residence? What REASON would he have for doing such a thing?

You probably already know what my answer to the questions would be. It does not seem logical that he would do such a thing. It would be without REASON. Therefore, the verse should not be construed in a literal sense.

I look forward to your comments.

Thanks,

Paul

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Pallbearer

Hello Sea Breeze, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

To quote myself, this is what I said in the opening post:

I have a hunch that this particular "idea" (teaching) is one [that] no other church or religion complies with because, for one thing, they all believe that the earth is going to be burned up.

This is what you said to DJW:

DJW, I think a literal reading is just what it says... NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth.
"the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." - 2 Peter 3: 10

Unlike the churches of Christendom, the Watchtower Society does not believe that the heavens are to LITERALLY “pass away”. Also, unlike the churches of Christendom, the Watchtower Society does not believe that the earth is to LITERALLY “be burned up”. Christendom believes the earth will become totally destroyed and later replaced with a totally different new earth. This is what distinguishes Christendom’s “idea” of the doctrine "From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained" from that of the Watchtower Society. Thus, Christendom has their version of this doctrine, and the Watchtower Society has its version.

I think that it is safe to say that the Watchtower Society’s understanding of this doctrine is definitely unique--no other church or religion presents it the same way.

Thanks,

Paul

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Pallbearer

Hi there Disillusioned JW!

I want to thank you for asking these very pointed and helpful questions.

You said:

Regarding those mainstream non-JW churches that teach a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ, do they believe that Earth will become totally destroyed and later replaced with a totally different new Earth, or do they believe our Earth will become severely damaged and then fully restored/repaired (and made better than it ever was) and made new in that sense? Likewise do they believe the heavens (where they say God lives?) will be completely destroyed and replaced with a totally different new heavens, or do they mean some other kind of heavens will be destroyed?

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Pallbearer

Howdy folks,

I am interested in learning whether or not The Watchtower Society is the ONLY religious entity that teaches the "From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained" idea.

The "idea" is that God's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed. God purposed for Adam and Eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed. Having sinned, the first human couple were expelled from the beautiful garden that God had made for them. So that's when paradise was "lost". Once the problem of sin has been taken care of, mankind will be back on track and the earth will become a physical and spiritual paradise. So that's when paradise will have been "regained".

So that's the "idea". God's original purpose for mankind and the earth will finally have been completed. The earth is to last forever and be filled with people who also last forever.

So my question is: If there should happen to be another religion or denomination that understands the Bible the same way the Watchtower Society does with regards to this "idea," then who is it? I personally do not know of any, but if by chance you do I would greatly appreciate being enlightened.

I have a hunch that this particular "idea" (teaching) is one no other church or religion complies with because, for one thing, they all believe that the earth is going to be burned up.

Thanks for any help that you might offer.

Paul

30

Badge of honor - for apostasy!

by Vidqun in

today, i have attended my jc meeting, courtesy of three local elders.

all three had their "shepherd"-books on their laps.

i carefully and meticulously proved to them that their interpretation of dan.

Pallbearer

Hello Vidqun,

I just read your story about being disfellowshipped.

So now that 8 years have passed, and I am assuming that you still believe in God and the Bible, I am wondering if you have found some group or church to associate with?

Just curious.

Paul