berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
I am wondering, was Germany against putting to death Nazi war criminals who were tried at Nuremberg?
Check your history books to answer this question: how much of an actually sovereign state of "Germany" was there when the Nuremberg trials happened?
Mustang: thanks for your clarification. It seems we agree on some points (but certainly not on all ;-)) .
f.
Edited by - fodeja on 1 September 2002 15:9:16
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
Geraldo Riveria proves the point that conservatives have been making for years: a liberal is a person whose interests are not currently at stake. Dodge a few bullets and KAPOW, you're as conservative as they come.
Sorry to spoil your simplification, but: I've dodged a few bullets, and as far as I understand the conservative American idea of "liberal", I do fit that cliche.
If I should take your point seriously, you'll have to prove to me that all (or at least most) war veterans became conservatives. And I don't mean your neighbour next door, or that one guy Riveria -- that's too small of a sample for me or any statistician ;-)
f.
edited for spelling (hey, Simon, what's wrong with accented characters?!)
Edited by - fodeja on 1 September 2002 14:58:8
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
Then if they want to stick their nose into Amercin sovereignty, they can bring their wallet and paid the freight!!!
How are they "sticking their nose into American sovereignty"? They're refusing to disclose things that are in their own possession -- they CAN do that, because they're a sovereign state. That's what being a sovereign state is about, amongst other things.
Second, you ignored my point: the US government (or many other governments, for that matter) also wants to impose its view of human rights on other countries. Actually, the US has a long history of doing so. The US, however, certainly claims it is NOT willing to fund governments that are -- from a US viewpoint -- ignoring human rights. Should the US government pay money to Saddam Hussein to prevent the killing of dissidents? Well, I guess most "conservatives" would denounce that as "appeasement" (sure, that's a drastic example).
So, why are the Germans not allowed to do the same? Because they're Germans? I guess they would be damned either way: if they disclose the evidence, they're weak and don't adhere to their own principles (aw, typical! Krauts!). If they don't, they're anti-American and somehow still feeling bad about the Nazi past (aw, typical! Krauts!).
f.
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
The "sweetness and light" DO-GOODERS are the ones who OPPOSE the death penalty. These are the guys who would rehabilitate the Al-Qaida.
If I understand you correctly, please reconsider your generalisations: I do oppose the death penalty, but I certainly do not favour the "rehabilitation" (whatever you mean by that) of convicted terrorists.
Fine, we can send you and the Germans the bill for maintenance of these offenders.
Well, the Germans (actually: the German government) know the price for keeping their murderers in prison, and they pay it. It's their decision, which you may find good or bad, but it's their money.
While I think they are mistaken in the specific case we're talking about, there is a good point: if you think the death penalty is a violation of human rights, why should you support other governments that practice it?
I don't think the US is willing to pay for the prison sentences of US citizens who'd otherwise get whipped 25 times with barbed wire, or something like that. Does the USA (or any other nation) send money to prevent the public stoning of women accused of adultery? AFAIK not, but they complain about it. So where's the hypocrisy?
f.
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
They get out all the time unless it's high profile.
That's not necessarily an argument for the death penalty. It's just an argument for making sure that a life sentence really is a life sentence.
f.
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
On the death penalty: being "nice" (forgiveness, sweetness & light, no death penalty) doesn't work on the jerks who don't play by your rules (sworn killers who laugh at you and shoot you twice because you won't shoot at them).
First, locking someone up for the rest of his life isn't my idea of being "forgiving, sweet, and light". It's a severe form of punishment: it's the complete removal of freedom. You can't go anywhere until you die.
Second: someone who's locked up cannot shoot you, or anyone. The threat is gone.
Opposing the death penalty doesn't mean opposing self-defence, or violence to prevent other people's deaths (e.g. a policeman shooting a robber who's threatening him or another person with a gun).
f.
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
It's probably a totally futile attempt, but: why don't we discuss E-Man's question instead of all this nationalistic crap? Maybe it's easier when we try to make it less specific, maybe that will keep the emotions out:
Is it acceptable that government A denies government B access to evidence on a suspected criminal, based on its disapproval of a certain form of punishment?
My opinion:
1) Either you do that consistently, or you don't. Period. No exceptions.
2) Don't wait until a high-profile case comes up so you can make your point as visibly as possible: decide on one course of action, make it clear to everyone, and follow it. Otherwise, all you'll get is nationalistic emotions stirred on both sides (q.e.d.).
I don't know whether the German government has practiced this consistently or not, but right now it seems that someone's simply taking an opportunity to abuse justice for politics. As I said before, Germany is neither the first nor the only nation acting that way. That doesn't make it better, though.
f.
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
*sigh*
I found one "opinion" of yours provocative and downright stupid (because it's simply irrelevant to the issue and nothing except a sort of ad hominem attack). Your answer implied that you didn't mean it, after all, you used the "intended humor icon" at the end of the message.
So, forgive my stupidity for not being able to decipher your grandiose writing (in spite of all that boldface and colored stuff) and enlighten me: was your accusation that the Germans oppose the death penalty (in part) because they feel bad about the 3rd Reich
a) meant seriously,
b) meant as a joke,
c) not meant as anything, I'm just imagining it, it's all my fault, and I shouldn't take things out of context like all those aposta...oh, sorry, you get my drift.
Thanks.
f.
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
I am discussing an issue, giving an opinion with some humor ... using the intended humor icon repeatedly
In other words: one shouldn't take anything you write seriously as soon as you use the "intended humor icon" anywhere in your message?
f.
berlin germany has told the united states it will withhold evidence against sept. 11 conspiracy defendant zacarias moussaoui unless it receives assurances that the material won't be used to secure a death penalty against him, germany's justice minister said in remarks released saturday.
just seen this on the news.
i know that european countries won't extradite anyone to the us if they could face the death penalty, but this seems a very different kettle of fish somehow.
Also, I believe that the Germans in some way are trying to look more righteous today to offset their historical connections to Hitler, and their obvious connection to concentration camps.
Uhm, sure, yes. And the Americans are trying to look more righteous today to offset their historical connections to (insert any historical genocide or war crime committed by Americans here).
Are you trying to discuss an issue, or just trying to provoke? That's not being "conservative", that's being stupid.
f.
