i'm going to join in the mass e-mailing campaign.. sylvia.
Maybe I am not racist enough to connect the dots to Obama...
My first impression of that cartoon is the satiric connection between the chimp that went crazy in Connecticut and a Congress that went crazy writing and rushing the stimulus (spending) package.
Now, whether the cartoon is on the tasteless side is another subject all together...
i have a situation that i am going thru mostly alone.
my 23 yo daughter who lives on her own is getting married to an 'unbeliever'.
her father and i have been divorced for 13 yrs now and live with my mother who is up in years.
Hi Meg and welcome. I had a very similar situation with one of my kids. They were married a few years back to a non-JW. My son was never baptized, so he was not "officially" a JW. My ex-wife is still a hard-core JW and would not come to the wedding claiming she had prior plans! Though he was hurt by his mother's decision, he realized that the day would be much more joyous without her disapproving presence dampening the day. Interestingly, other JW family members did attend and had a great time. (the wedding was not held at a church)
Selfish, cult-like behavior extends to most areas of life...this is the same woman that did not attend any of her children's graduations from university because "that type of education is not important".
Enjoy the day with your daughter...her father will ultimately be the one hurting himself by his decision.
this must have been mentioned before,but now reniaa is back it could be fun.. if jw's are even part way to the truth,and all other religions are false, then they must have a doctrine that is unique to them,given by holy spirit, but plainly taught in the bible,without resorting to fancifull exegesis and bouncing around from verse to verse out of context etc.. what is that doctrine?.
love.
wobble.. .
I believe Earnest, unlike Reniaa, is more of "Devil's Advocate" for JW's basis for their theology rather than claiming he personally agrees with JW theology. Earnest has said in earlier posts he is more "Agnostic for Jehovah" than JW.
I like your questions Password and leavingwt, but I believe they would be better asked of true apologists like Reniaa (unfortunately, they are not likely to be addressed directly on a point by point basis)... I would still be interested in Earnest's thoughts on my points on believing truth in my comments above.
this must have been mentioned before,but now reniaa is back it could be fun.. if jw's are even part way to the truth,and all other religions are false, then they must have a doctrine that is unique to them,given by holy spirit, but plainly taught in the bible,without resorting to fancifull exegesis and bouncing around from verse to verse out of context etc.. what is that doctrine?.
love.
wobble.. .
Earnest, I agree with your analysis:
they believe they have the truth because they believe that it is more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation than other faiths
The problem with that is ANYONE can believe something is correct, but that doesn't make it right. When Reniaa speaks of JW's having the closest beliefs to what the Bible teaches and how the early Christian congregation was, it is because SHE believes that and not because it is accepted as a fact by the majority. I'm sure C.T. Russell believed that God resided on Pleiades, that he was the FDS, that Jesus started ruling in heaven in 1878, that 1914 would mark the end of the world and that the re-establishment of a new nation of Israel in Palestine was important to achieve. Would any JW accept these things today?...of course not, but at the turn of the 19th century The Bible Students believed they had the truth. Just because you believe it don't make it so!
Mary is right on when she states that:
The 'horseshit' I speak of, is the impression that Jehovah's Witnesses have openly studied other religions without bias, and have somehow come to the conclusion that the WTB&TS more closely resembles the first century congregation than any other religion on earth. Witnesses are not allowed to study other religions openly---the only thing they know about other religions is what they read in the pages churned out from Bethel.
Can any of us, especially the "born ins", honestly say that they truly studied or examined other religions? I know that my knowledge came solely from what I was told through the WT and other JW publications. I would guess that Reniaa's "study" of other religions is via this route rather than any independent examination of belief systems or doctrines. Her fixation on how the cross is used by Christian denominations is a perfect example. The WTBTS has focused on the so-called worship of the cross, when in reality it is not an object of worship outside of Catholic or Orthodox denominations. This type of generalization is very typical of the "facts" promulgated to JW's from the Society. Despite this limited knowledge, JW's make themselves self-proclaimed experts on this and numerous other theological subjects. How can you form a reasonable opinion when you limit yourself to one source of information??
I have heard the "if you can show me a religion that is closer to the Bible than JW's, I'll change to it", but it rings hollow. It falls into the same category as "where else would we go if we left the Truth?" To provide an answer to either of the these statements you would have to look at what options are out there...and we know that is a JW no-no. You would immediately be identified as spiritually weak or apostate. Since the fear of repercussion is so high, they would never look to see if there was a better alternative.
I agree with BizzyBee:
Witnesses say some of the darndest things, but they are programmed that way and they have an agenda. These are probably the same Witnesses who would say they 'just love going in field service'. That one doesn't pass the smell test either.
this must have been mentioned before,but now reniaa is back it could be fun.. if jw's are even part way to the truth,and all other religions are false, then they must have a doctrine that is unique to them,given by holy spirit, but plainly taught in the bible,without resorting to fancifull exegesis and bouncing around from verse to verse out of context etc.. what is that doctrine?.
love.
wobble.. .
Earnest, you comment:
besty :
We have asked what made them unique in 1919 when Jesus chose them. Care to answer that in your own words?
I thought you had accepted the point that oompa continually made that the insistence on accepting true teachings of the Bible that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses referred to 'present truth' and not any unique belief held in 1919. I firmly believe that the great majority of JWs accept their faith as the truth because they believe that it is more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation than other faiths. Many a Witness, including elders, have said to me that if there were another faith more in harmony with the Bible and the early Christian congregation they would change in an instant. This does not sound to me like people who are adhereing to a faith because something happened in 1919.
I would just comment that JW's are nothing like the early Christian congregation. The early Christian congregation was not a rigidly structured organization with legalistic rules and regulations enforced on its adherents. The only thing required was an acceptance of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus and a few simple life principles. Many people were baptized immediately after this acceptance, ie: Cornelius, the eunuch by Philip and others taught by the Jesus, the apostles and other disciples. The majority of people in the early congregation were simple farmers, fisherman or tradesmen...not scholars who devoted their lives to a study of the scriptures. They were not expected to have a working knowledge of doctrine, dogma or tradition to be accepted as Christians. The message was simple yet impactful on the way they lived their lives.
I would offer that many denominations of Christianity are more in line with that aspect of the early Christian congregation than are JW's. The reality is that JW's much more closely resemble the Pharisees of the First Century. That alone is enough to disqualify JW's as being the closest belief to the early Christian congregation if we are examining who was "true" to the concepts of the early Christian faith.
i have been scratching my head...is there a scriptural basis for the reinstatement process for a df'ed person?
it seems that biblically, the people who strayed were welcomed back as soon as they repented (ie: the prodigal son, etc.).
is there any basis for a review of a person's heart by a body of elders, a 6 month minimum waiting period to determine repentance, limitation of privileges as part of the restoration process?
Thanks Isaac and Wobble...I need to dig out 2 Corinthians and read it again...which chapter is that in? Maybe the groveling is necessary to show proper repentance (yuck)...I guess simply saying it is not good enough!
i have been scratching my head...is there a scriptural basis for the reinstatement process for a df'ed person?
it seems that biblically, the people who strayed were welcomed back as soon as they repented (ie: the prodigal son, etc.).
is there any basis for a review of a person's heart by a body of elders, a 6 month minimum waiting period to determine repentance, limitation of privileges as part of the restoration process?
I have been scratching my head...is there a scriptural basis for the reinstatement process for a DF'ed person? It seems that biblically, the people who strayed were welcomed back as soon as they repented (ie: the prodigal son, etc.). Is there any basis for a review of a person's heart by a body of elders, a 6 month minimum waiting period to determine repentance, limitation of privileges as part of the restoration process? I am not looking to go back, but I am curious as to the rationale behind making people jump through hoops to get reinstated. Any of our scholars thoughts would be appreciated since I have always wondered where the authority for that process came from.
Smug
this must have been mentioned before,but now reniaa is back it could be fun.. if jw's are even part way to the truth,and all other religions are false, then they must have a doctrine that is unique to them,given by holy spirit, but plainly taught in the bible,without resorting to fancifull exegesis and bouncing around from verse to verse out of context etc.. what is that doctrine?.
love.
wobble.. .
1/ why do you keep Jw's separate from the rest of christianity? when I judge which christian faith I believe in because they are so diverse now I believe you have to use the same bible standard for all but I get the impression you will accept in others what you won't accept in JW's?
If you use the same standard Reniaa, JW's are just as wanting as any other religion. None are perfect...the difference is that I can't think of any other mainstream Christian denomination that demonizes members that leave their ranks. I have never heard a pastor claim to be God's sole channel.
2/ which leads me to this question all church leaders consider they have been given the right to lead and the direction their faith goes from the lowliest faith where the local shaman decides the direction of the tribe to the biggest Religions in all the world, their leaders all claim special direction to lead and people either agree or disagree, the Jws are no different. Even non-religious orgs claim special knowledge usually by ....being voted in, conquest, royal hereditory, Power, Money, learning or experience, they make the decisions for the whole group.
Again, what mainstream church claims special direction or absolute loyalty of members?
If someone goes to prison for a certain drug aka marijuana usage in some countries it's legal in others it isn't, by what right do the governments or judges have to decide what is legal or not?
this is the biggest thing I cannot understand with the viewpoint of ex-witnesses they argue that somehow gb are not allowed to rule but accept it in every other aspects of their life's? If you brake the rules at work then you will lose your job would you feel hard done by if you are sacked for doing a sackable offence by your work's standard even if you consider it silly? but you knew before you went into the job it was a sackable offence?
Even prisoner's families are not required to shun the prisoner...they still have visiting rights!
3/ When Jesus comes to Judge the bible is very clear he will be judging the conditions of mens hearts towards God and the bible is also very clear what it considers wrongdoings aka fornication, homosexuality, adultery, idolatry, blood, stealing, lying, murdering.
My church condemns all of the above except blood transfusion...and I don't see in the Bible where it is condemned. (and please don't use the prohibition against eating blood as an argument...transfusions have no nutritional benefit)
If you no longer believe in Jw's does it mean you can do these things as long as you believe in Jesus?
Who has argued that? No church teaches you can just claim to beieve in Jesus and do whatever you want.
4/ Witnesses are not perfect, niether are the gb they have made mistakes in the past and continue to do so but does imperfection make a religion or org invalid?
No, but JW's claim to be spirit directed from Jehovah...does he make mistakes?...is he imperfect??
5/ What do you want in a religion you feel is blessed by God's holy spirit, what would be it's fruitage? did any of the bible's God-chosen religions show this fruitage other than Jesus himself?
How about reflecting Jesus' attributes...and to be identified by the love they show. Was Jesus legalistic in dealing with people?...
6/ if an evolutionist makes a new discovery like recently dinosaurs were found in the belly of mammals larger than rats obviously having been eaten so changing an established evolutionary belief for 100's of years that always had mammals at a basic developmental stage to dinosaurs, why do you accept this flip-flop if you are an atheist?
If an evolutionist claimed to be God's channel and directed by God, I wouldn't...if he is just a man giving his interpretation, I could accept his changing his statements.
Reniaa, we could go back and forth endlessly, but the bottom line is as long as there are claims of divine appointment and continuing direction by God, that claimant will be held to a higher standard.
in good ole blighty, 3 years with a minimum of 18 months.
(that's 3 months per human life).
that's not too bad.
pretty pathetic...
