Posts by Mebaqqer2

112

the Watchtower, December 15, 2009 (PDF)

by possible-san in

well, the watchtower, december 15, 2009 (pdf) is downloadable now.. although i had stopped notifying of those pdf files here, am i good to notify you?.

.

http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/.

Mebaqqer2

possible just became Satan with that post...mark of the beast and all (look carefully).

Mebaqqer

112

the Watchtower, December 15, 2009 (PDF)

by possible-san in

well, the watchtower, december 15, 2009 (pdf) is downloadable now.. although i had stopped notifying of those pdf files here, am i good to notify you?.

.

http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/.

Mebaqqer2

To all,

I think what we have here is part cross-cultural misunderstanding and part self-promotion.

If it was possible-san's intent to provide this material so that others might benefit, he could have easily uploaded it somewhere, said it was available through this forum while acknowledging the person who produced the PDF. Instead he used this site to inform us that the material was available to people (who register) on his site; i.e. he is using the material to promote his own site.

As for giving thanks to the one who produced the PDF, I do not think anyone would hesitate to do so. The problem here is that in the West we believe that expressions of appreciation are best expressed naturally when the feeling occurs in an individual. It would be only to children who have yet to learn how to act in the world would someone say, "say thank you!" But in Japan saying thank you is not about true expression of feeling, but is rather an expression related to proper form as a member of society. In Japan one can see such admonitions on the proper way to act all the time. For example, here is a sign that tells you to put your legs in while riding the train: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1144/538502614_7f1c4f3cdc.jpg. The expression of thanks may be accompanied by feeling in Japan, but it need not be. Basically, form takes precedent over feelings and it is through the mastery of form that Japanese believe one develops the proper inner responses.

Because how to act is grounded in form rather than feelings from within in Japan, it is not surprising for a Japanese adult to admonish another adult to behave a certain way. Of course to a Westerner such an act is rude not only because such admonition makes the recipient out to be a child, but because such admonition assumes that the recipient does not know the proper way to act. I think this is the real reason why possible-san's post gets people so riled up. I am sure if possible-san had used the method I had said earlier, there would have been many thanks from everyone. As it is, possible-san's perceived condescending manner coupled with the usage of the material to self-promote his site has led many to see him as rude and disingenuous.

Mebaqqer

P.S. I don't want the magazine and never did...

6

Chance find at the flea market

by Mebaqqer2 in

i found something at the flea market today...two, not bound volumes...but individual magazines (watchtower and awake for the year 1974) each in a blue bundling folder.

the folders have "watchtower" and "awake" embossed on the front and in gold lettering on the spine with "watch tower bible & tract society" at the bottom of the spine.

who ever put these together, however, put the entire year of awake!

Mebaqqer2

Let me try that...it worked! Now my question is, should I sell them individually or in the set? (joking...maybe)

-Mebaqqer

14

J11

by Mebaqqer2 in

i just wanted to relate to those who care that i recently obtain a copy of the work cited as j11 by the new world translation.

if anyone is curious about how a certian passage reads, want a scan, etc.

(my new blog-> http://mebaqqer.wordpress.com/ ).

Mebaqqer2

Just some additional information:

The Watchtower of November 15, 1946 has an article discussing the use of the divine name in the Christian New Testament. I believe that this article was written during the time that the translation work for the New World Translation was underway. Notice:

Furthermore, among the languages into which the Greek Scriptures have been translated is the classical ancient Hebrew itself. In the year 1877 the "Hebrew New Testament"’ was published as translated by Franz Delitzsch, who was of Hebrew descent, and it had a wide circulation in Galatia and Russia. In this Delitzsch translation the name Jehovah actually occurs in its original Hebrew form 17 times in Matthew, 10 thnes in Mark, 37 times in Luke, 4 times in John, and 36 times in Acts, and 76 times from Romans to Revelation, or 180 times in all, not counting in the four occurrences of the exclamation "Hallelujah!" In the year 1891 the third edition of Salkinson-Ginsburg’s "Hebrew New Testament" was published, and it corresponds with Delitzsch’s translation in literally using the name Jehovah in original Hebrew form from Matthew to Revelation. -p. 378

Why do I believe that this article was written during the time the translation was underway? For one, it fits with the timeline for the translation as given by the Society. Secondly, it is hard to imagine someone taking the time to find the occurences in Delitzsch (= J17) of the Tetragrammation for no reason, but when we realize that this must have been done for the translation, then it would make sense. Finally, it is interesting to note that the paragraph mentions Salkinson-Ginsburg's third edition (= J18). Why not his first or second which also contained the Tetragrammaton? When we turn to the Forward of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures we notice that there too the third edition is mentioned as the oldest they had utilized. Finally, the whole article seems to be the nucleus for the argument found in the Forward to NWTCGS. If you find none of this pursuasive, just write it up to a hunch on my part...

Anyways, that is not what I was going to discuss, I was going to show Narkissos what the WTBTS has said about Shem-Tov's Matthew, but after I posted I saw he already found the information.

-Mebaqqer

6

Chance find at the flea market

by Mebaqqer2 in

i found something at the flea market today...two, not bound volumes...but individual magazines (watchtower and awake for the year 1974) each in a blue bundling folder.

the folders have "watchtower" and "awake" embossed on the front and in gold lettering on the spine with "watch tower bible & tract society" at the bottom of the spine.

who ever put these together, however, put the entire year of awake!

Mebaqqer2

I found something at the flea market today...two, not bound volumes...but individual magazines (Watchtower and Awake for the year 1974) each in a blue bundling folder. The folders have "Watchtower" and "Awake" embossed on the front and in gold lettering on the spine with "Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society" at the bottom of the spine. Who ever put these together, however, put the entire year of Awake! in upside down. Anyone know what the proper name for these binders are and how to open them so I can put the Awake! magazines in the right way?

Mebaqqer

14

J11

by Mebaqqer2 in

i just wanted to relate to those who care that i recently obtain a copy of the work cited as j11 by the new world translation.

if anyone is curious about how a certian passage reads, want a scan, etc.

(my new blog-> http://mebaqqer.wordpress.com/ ).

Mebaqqer2

bereanbiblestudent,

Do you happen to have a scan of the page from the German edition of the New World Translation with references for the list of J-sources? I believe that I have got most of their names, but some have been elusive.

I found J24 and J25 some time ago and have included their readings into what I have been working on.

I do have access to an edition of J18 as an electronic edition which is part of Bibleworks. However, this edition represents a later reworking of the text and thus does not reflect the original work of Salkinson-Ginsburg. The changes for the most part represent a reworking of the text to make it conform with the Textus Receptus. If any are interested, I can produce a list of several of these readings.

Mebaqqer

14

J11

by Mebaqqer2 in

i just wanted to relate to those who care that i recently obtain a copy of the work cited as j11 by the new world translation.

if anyone is curious about how a certian passage reads, want a scan, etc.

(my new blog-> http://mebaqqer.wordpress.com/ ).

Mebaqqer2

Hello all,

I just wanted to relate to those who care that I recently obtain a copy of the work cited as J 11 by the New World Translation. If anyone is curious about how a certian passage reads, want a scan, etc. please let me know how I can help you.

-Mebaqqer

(My new blog-> http://mebaqqer.wordpress.com/ )

13

What is the Firmament?

by VM44 in

in genesis the firmament is first mentioned.. god said, "let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

and god made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

and god called the firmament heaven.

Mebaqqer2

Just to let you know...

"And birds could later be said to fly in 'the expanse of the heavens,' as stated at Genesis 1:20."

Actually, Genesis 1:20 does not say that the birds fly "in" the expanse (raqia') of the heavens, it says that the birds fly literally "above the earth in front of/above the surface ('al-p'ney) of the raqia' of the heavens." "in the raqia'" would have been bireqia' see Gen. 1:14, 15, 17; Ps. 150:1.

Mebaqqer

6

J28 reference?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i have seen on several websites lists of sources for readings in the new world translation which seem to have been cut-and-pasted from the wtlib cd.

i noticed, however, that some of these lists give an additional j-source (j28) not found in my english editions.

(j28 is said to be the new covenant commonly called the new testament: peshitta aramaic text with a hebrew translation.

Mebaqqer2

Doug said

I wonder if the WTS's action is therefore a support for [the claim that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic]? It would be interesting to pursue, given the fact that the WTS NT inserts Hebrew letters into a text written in Greek letters. Are they now saying that the original that provides them with YHWH were Aramaic letters? But then how can they cite the LXX as a support for YHWH, when that was written in Greek? What a minefield.

I think the mindfield is cleared up once you realize that all the J-sources are used, not as the basis for "restoring" the Divine Name into the New Testament, but to confirm decisions already made by the translators. I mean, J21 is an English source and yet they are not by its usage saying that the New Testament was originally written in English! The J-sources then, only serve to justify their translation, not serve as the basis for it.

This becomes apparent when discussing mundane examples. For example, John 8:44 in the original 1950 release was as follows:

because he is a liar and the father of the lie(a)

(a) the lie, J17; it, ? B Vg

Here we see an example of where "of it" has been made explicit. I doubt any translator would have argued against the NWT that this represents a distortion of the meaning here and some might even translate as the NWT does for clarity. Slight paraphrasing from time to time is sometimes necessary when translating. What is interesting is that the NWT translators felt they needed to explain themselves here and actually look for justification in their textual sources. Yet any textual critic here would judge J17 as a having a paraphrasic reading here to make "of it" explicit and not a real variant as implied by the 1950 NWT footnote which sets one reading against another. It is no wonder that the later revisions handle this much better and box the words "the lie" and say "lit. 'it', and yet they still cite sources, J17, 22, to somehow bring validation to their paraphrase that is wholly unnecessary.

Mebaqqer

6

J28 reference?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i have seen on several websites lists of sources for readings in the new world translation which seem to have been cut-and-pasted from the wtlib cd.

i noticed, however, that some of these lists give an additional j-source (j28) not found in my english editions.

(j28 is said to be the new covenant commonly called the new testament: peshitta aramaic text with a hebrew translation.

Mebaqqer2

Following the cue from Possible, I have tracked down the Spanish version to find out more about this source. Here is a list of the places cited for J28:

MATTHEW
1:20+ Ky; J3,4,7-14,16-18,22-24,28
1:22 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,22-24,26,28
1:24 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,22-24,28
2:13 Ky; J1-4,6-14,16-18,22-24,28
2:15 Ky; J1,3,4,6-14,16-18,22-24,28
2:19 Ky; J1-4,6-14,16-18,22-24,28
3:3 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,20,22-24,26,28
4:7 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20,22-24,28
4:10 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20,22-24,28
5:33* Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,22,23,28
21:9 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20-24,28
21:42 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,20-24,28
22:37 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20-24,28
22:44 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20-24,28
23:39 Ky; J1-14,16-18,21-24,28
27:10 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16,17,22-24,28
28:2 Ky; J1-4,7-13,16-18,22-24,28

MARK
1:3 Ky; J7-14,16-18,22-24,28
5:19* Ky; J7-10,17,18,22,28
11:9 Ky; J7,8,10-14,16-18,21-24,28
12:11 Ky; J7-14,16-18,21-24,28
12:29 Ky; J7-14,16-18,20-24,27,28
12:29 Ky; J7-14,16-18,20-24,28
12:30 Ky; J7-14,16-18,21-24,28
12:36 Ky; J7-14,16-18,21-24,28
13:20 Ky; J7,8,10,13,16-18,22-24,28

LUKE
1:6* Ky; J7-17,23,28
1:9* Ky; J7-18,22,23,28
1:11 Ky; J7-13,16-18,22-24,28
1:15 Ky; J7,8,10-18,22,23,28
1:16 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
1:17 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
1:25 Ky; J7-18,22,23,28
1:32 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
1:38 Ky; J5,7-18,22-24,28
1:45 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
1:46* Ky; J5-18,22,23,28
1:66 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
1:68 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
1:76 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
2:9 Ky; J5,7,8,10-18,22-24,28
2:15* Ky; J5,7,8,10-18,22,23,28
2:22* Ky; J5-18,22,23,28
2:23 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
2:23* Ky; J5-18,22,23,28
2:24 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
2:26 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
2:39 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
3:4 Ky; J7-15,17,18,22-24,28
4:8 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
4:12 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
4:19 Ky; J7-18,20,22-24,28
5:17 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
10:27 Ky; J5-18,21-24,28
13:35 Ky; J7-18,21-24,28
19:38 Ky; J7-18,21-24,28
20:37 Ky; J9,11-18,21-24,27,28
20:42 Ky; J7-18,21-24,28

JOHN
1:23 Ky; J5-14,16-19,22-24,28
12:13 Ky; J7-14,16-19,21-24,28
12:38 Ky; J7-14,16-20,22-24,28

ACTS
2:20 Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
2:21 Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
2:25* Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22,23,28
2:34 Ky; J7,8,10-18,21-24,28
3:19* Ky; J13-18,22,23,28
3:22+ Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
4:26* Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22,23,28
5:19 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24,28
7:31 Ky; J11-18,22-24,28
7:33* Ky; J11-18,22,23,28
7:49 Ky; J11-18,20,22-24,28
8:26 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24,28
8:39 Ky; J13,15-18,22-24,28
11:21 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22,23,28
12:7 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24,28
12:11* Ky; J7,8,10,13,15,16,18,23,28
12:17* Ky; J7,8,10,28
12:23 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24,28
13:10* Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22,23,28
13:11 Ky; J7,8,10,15-18,22-24,28
13:49* Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22,23,28
15:17* Ky; J11-18,22,23,28
15:17 Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
16:32+* Th; J7,8,10,17,18,22,23,28

ROMANS
9:29 Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
10:13 Ky; J7,8,10,13-18,22-24,28
11:34 Ky; J7,8,10,13-18,20,22-25,28
14:11 Ky; J7,8,10-18,22-25,28
15:11* Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22,23,25,28

1 CORINTHIANS
1:31 Ky; J7,8,10-14,16-18,22-24,28
2:16 Ky; J13,14,16-18,22-24,28
3:20 Ky; J7,8,10-14,16-18,20,22-24,28
4:4 Ky; J7,8,10,17,18,23,24,28
4:19* Ky; J7,8,10,22,23,28
7:17+* Ky; J28
10:26* Ky; J7,8,10,11,13,14,16-18,20,22,23,28
14:21 Ky; J7,8,10-14,16-18,22-24,28
16:10 Ky; J7,8,10,13,14,16-18,24,28

2 CORINTHIANS
3:16 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,22,24,28
3:17* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,28
3:17 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,22,24,28
3:18 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,22,24,28
3:18 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,22,24,28
6:17 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
6:18 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
10:17 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
10:18* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28

EPHESEANS
2:21 Ky; J7,8,13,16-18,22-24,28
5:19* Ky; J7,8,13,16,23,28

COLOSENSES
3:22+* Ky; J18,22,28

2 TIMOTHY
2:19 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,20,22-24,28
2:19 Ky; J18,22-24,28

HEBREWS
7:21 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
8:8 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
8:9 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
8:10 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22,24,28
8:11* Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22,23,28
10:16 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,22-24,28
10:30 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
12:5 Ky; J7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
12:6 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28

JAMES
1:7* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
3:9+* Ky; J18,23,28
4:10 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
4:15* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
5:4 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
5:10 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
5:11 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,18,22-24,28
5:11* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28

1 PETER
3:12 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,20,22-24,28
3:12 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,20,22,24,28

2 PETER
2:9 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
3:8 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
3:9 Ky; J7,8,13,16-18,22-24,28
3:10 Ky; J7,8,13,16-18,22-24,28

JUDE
9+ Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
14 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28

REVELATION
1:8 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
4:8 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22,24,28
4:11* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,18,28
11:17 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
15:3 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
15:4 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
16:7 Ky; J13,14,16-18,22,23,28
18:8+ Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
19:6 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
21:22* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
22:5 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
22:6* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,24,28

Beyond this, it is cited at:

Luke 2:38 (“Dios”,? AB; VgSyp,s: “el Señor”; J5,7-17,28: “Jehová”) = Jehovah
Acts 7:30 (“Un ángel”, P74?ABCVg; DSyp: “un ángel de[l] Señor”; J7,8,10-17,28: “el ángel de Jehová”) = the angel of Jehovah
Acts 7:37 (“Dios”,? ABVg; CSyp: “El Señor Dios”; J7,8,10-17: “Jehová su Dios”; J28: “Jehová Dios”) = Jehovah God
Acts 14:25 (“Palabra”, BD;? ACVgSyp: “palabra del Señor”; P74: “palabra de Dios”; J17,28: “palabra de Jehová”) = word of Jehovah

I wonder why they have not updated this source in English versions. After all, it does give them "confirmation" for 1 Cor. 7:17. Thank you Possible for looking into this for me.

Mebaqqer