Good point, Drew.
You too, Inkie.
LiveLife
JoinedPosts by LiveLife
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9
Wolves in Sheep's Clothing = False Prophets
by LiveLife inmatthew 7:15-20. be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheeps covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?
likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.
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9
Wolves in Sheep's Clothing = False Prophets
by LiveLife inmatthew 7:15-20. be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheeps covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?
likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.
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LiveLife
Matthew 7:15-20
“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].From the first sentence it is undeniable that this paragraph refers to false prophets who pretend to be something other than false prophets. In the second sentence, the phrase "recognize them" refers to the only group mentioned thus far: false prophets. Likewise, the final sentence says you will "recognize those [men]" in reference to false prophets.
Jesus wasn't talking about bad people versus good people, wicked versus righteous, or any dichotomy of humanity other than true prophets and false prophets. And he sets it in what is called a Boolean logic structure; better known as "either ... or".
What fruit is borne by false prophets? Well, the Governing Body has an answer that has to do with all sorts of things except prophecy. An odd take, indeed, since it is perfectly clear that prophecy and, more specifically, the veracity of prophecy (false/true) was the entire point of Jesus' cautioning words. Here is what the Governing Body says about these verses:
***w016/1pp.13-15pars.6-14"IfGodIsforUs,WhoWillBeAgainstUs?"*** 6 Jesus laid down the rule for distinguishing true worship from false when he said: "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. Bytheirfruitsyouwillrecognizethem." (Matthew 7:15, 16; Malachi 3:18) Let us review some of the "fruits," or identifying marks, of true religion so that we in all honesty can determine who today has divine backing.
IdentifyingMarksofThoseHavingGod’sBacking 7 TheybasetheirteachingsontheBible. Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." And also: "He that is from God listens to the sayings of God." (John 7:16, 17; 8:47) Logically, to enjoy God’s backing, one must teach only what God reveals in his Word and reject teachings based on human wisdom or tradition.—Isaiah 29:13; Matthew 15:3-9; Colossians 2:8.
8 TheyuseandpublicizeGod’sname,Jehovah. Isaiah foretold: "In that day you will certainly say: ‘Give thanks to Jehovah, you people! Call upon his name. Make known among the peoples his dealings. Make mention that his name is put on high. Make melody to Jehovah, for he has done surpassingly. This is made known in all the earth.’" (Isaiah 12:4, 5) Jesus taught his followers to pray: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified." (Matthew 6:9) Therefore, whether Jew or non-Jew, Christians were to serve as "a people for [God’s] name." (Acts 15:14) God is obviously pleased to back those who are proud to be "a people for his name."
9 TheyreflectGod’sjoyfulpersonality. As author of "good news," Jehovah is "the happy God." (1 Timothy 1:11) So how could his worshipers be unhappy or persistently pessimistic? Despite world distress and personal problems, true Christians maintain a joyful spirit because they regularly feast on rich spiritual food. Isaiah contrasts them with those practicing false religion: "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: ‘Look! My own servants will eat, but you yourselves will go hungry. Look! My own servants will drink, but you yourselves will go thirsty. Look! My own servants will rejoice, but you yourselves will suffer shame. Look! My own servants will cry out joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, but you yourselves will make outcries because of the pain of heart and you will howl because of sheer breakdown of spirit.’"—Isaiah 65:13, 14.
10 TheybasetheirconductandtheirdecisionsonBibleprinciples. "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding," the writer of Proverbs advises us, "in all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight." (Proverbs 3:5, 6) God backs those who look to him for direction rather than to the contradictory theories of humans who ignore godly wisdom. To the extent that a person is willing to pattern his life after God’s Word, he will avoid having to learn by trial and error.—Psalm 119:33; 1 Corinthians 1:19-21.
11 Theyareorganizedinthemannerofthefirst-centuryChristiancongregation. Jesus set out the principle: "Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister." (Matthew 23:8-11) A congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity. (Job 32:21, 22) Those shepherding the flock of God are told to do so "not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:2, 3) Genuine Christian shepherds refrain from trying to make themselves masters over the faith of others. As fellow workers in God’s service, they simply strive to set a fine example.—2 Corinthians 1:24.
12 Theyaresubmissivetohumangovernmentsandyetremainneutral. He who fails to be "in subjection to the superior authorities" cannot expect to have God’s backing. Why? Because "the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God." (Romans 13:1, 2) However, Jesus recognized the possibility of a conflict of interests when he said: "Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God." (Mark 12:17) Those desiring to have God’s backing must "keep on . . . seeking first the kingdom [of God] and his righteousness," while at the same time obeying the laws of the land that are compatible with their higher responsibilities to God. (Matthew 6:33; Acts 5:29) Jesus stressed neutrality when he said of his disciples: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." He later added: "My kingdom is no part of this world."—John 17:16; 18:36.
13 Theyareimpartialinworking"whatisgoodtowardall." (Galatians 6:10) Christian love knows no partiality, accepting all people regardless of their skin color, economic or educational status, nationality, or language. The working of what is good toward all and especially toward those related to them in the faith helps to identify those having God’s backing. Jesus said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."—John 13:35; Acts 10:34, 35.
14 TheyarewillingtosufferpersecutionfordoingGod’swill. Jesus forewarned his followers: "If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also." (John 15:20; Matthew 5:11, 12; 2 Timothy 3:12) Those having God’s backing have always been unpopular, as was Noah, who condemned the world through his faith. (Hebrews 11:7) Today, those desiring God’s backing dare not water down God’s word or compromise godly principles so as to avoid persecution. As long as they faithfully serve God, they know that people will be "puzzled and go on speaking abusively" of them.—1 Peter 2:12; 3:16; 4:4.Note: Completely absent from the list is "Accuracy of prophetic pronouncements." Why is this the case? Because they have a 100% failure rate in accurately prophesying. This becomes important when you realize that Jesus was speaking to Jews at Matthew 7:15 and they knew how to find a false prophet. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)
However, let us briefly examine their list of proofs from their own perspective. In other words, indulge me in shedding light on them in exactly the same fashion they freely use on Christendom.
They base their teachings on the Bible. Then why do they teach fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters to cut off their relatives if said relative decides to ignore the Governing Body? Why do they require five meetings per week, regular share in the public ministry prior to baptism, meek and mindless acceptance of any and all policy changes, and the acceptance of all Governing Body rulings on which pagan customs should be avoided vs. those which can be enjoyed? NONE of these come from the Bible.
They use and publicize God’s name, Jehovah. God's name is not Jehovah. Their own publications have admitted this indisputable fact, on occasion. More to the point, YHWH is a word with prophetic meaning that was fulfilled completely (according to the Bible) in Jesus Christ. All things became through Jesus. HE caused to become.
They reflect God’s joyful personality. Okay ... is joy really the identifying mark of Jehovah's Witnesses? Is that what they are publicly known for? Who's kidding whom, here?
They base their conduct and their decisions on Bible principles. Which Bible principle suggests that you should reject association with anyone who disagrees with your religious beliefs? Until very recently (last week) I had not violated any of their supposedly "moral" stands on anything. I tried a cigarette. As in, I tried ONE cigarette. I am not a fan and I believe people must have to work hard to acquire that particular habit (however tough it may be to quit). Confessions aside, my only sin in the eyes of their religion is rejecting what the Governing Body says. Where in the Scriptures is that set as a gross wrong, punishable by excommunication? The Apostle Paul didn't agree with what the elders in Jerusalem thought, and made no secret of his disagreement. He was not disfellowshipped.
They are organized in the manner of the first-century Christian congregation. Complete and utter bollocks. There was no centralized supreme authority over all congregations in the First Century. There was no territory divided up for congregations that congregations had to respect the boundaries of. There was no limit on where or to whom a Christian could speak, even in synagogues and temples of other religions. There was no limit on how many beliefs a Christian could learn from other cultures. There was no fixed place of meeting maintained by group contributions, the Christians met in small groups in the homes of regular people for fellowship. There was no rigid structure to the schedule of meetings determined by Jerusalem and distributed throughout the Christian world. There was no such thing as a Judicial Committee, or a book/school exclusively for elders, or exclusively for pioneers. There were no huge conventions or charges for parking at them.
They are submissive to human governments and yet remain neutral. Entirely subjective and thoroughly debatable. So I will leave it alone, as a possible reality. In my opinion, this one is also not true.
They are impartial in working "what is good toward all." Complete bollocks. Their version of "love" is filled with partiality. Partiality is taught in thousands of ways. They are partial toward regular meeting attenders. They are partial to Circuit and District overseers, visiting speakers, Bethelites, Missionaries, Governing Body members, Service Desk representatives. They are partial to elders, they are partial to pioneers, they are partial to those who comment well and often. They are partial against those who are irregular at meetings, against those who are irregular in ministry, against those who are male and older without any titular position in the congregation, against those who marry outside the congregation, against those who struggle as best they can to overcome the consequences of poor choices in their youth. They are eaten up with partiality, it is a veritable Caste system within the organization.
They are willing to suffer persecution for doing God’s will. Jesus did not ever say his followers would be persecuted for doing God's will. In the verse they partially quoted, Jesus put himself as master and his disciples as slave. (John 15:20) In Matthew 5, they cite one of the Beatitudes as proof of their point, but it says persecution leading to happiness would be for the sake of Jesus, not for the sake of Jehovah. No Jehovah's Witness has ever been persecuted for the sake of Jesus, for the sake of Jesus' name, or because Jesus is their master. So, their assertion is complete bollocks.
But, on the blade of true versus false prophecy it is easy to prove what the Governing Body are. By extension, all who parrot their crap make the same of themselves.
Live Life
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59
AURAS......
by freedomloverr inwithout elaborating at length, there has been a lot going on in my life of late and i have sought out some therapies that i have used in the past.
they've helped a lot.
they are more along the lines of *natural* therapies.
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LiveLife
Neigh, neigh, but four other wives...humour is never wasted.
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I'm starting to really get into the New Testament. This is great!
by MichaelM instuff i never really touched much when i was a studying with the witnesses.
i'm in awe.. amazed.. at the things jesus is saying/doing.. some of it is even putting me in tears.
one chapter that i really love so far is i'm in luke and i'm reading about the woman who came into the pharisee's home and started kissing jesus' feet and jesus told the story of the two people that owed money.
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LiveLife
Marius,
You might do well to consider that not all posters here are from the UK or understand the wry humor thing you guys are so brilliantly gifted with. Most Yanks don't keep a stiff upper lip and comments can pain most of us like slugs to the gut, so you might want to use emoticons.
I have really enjoyed your biting repartee, but I can see how the missing cues could make some uncomfortable. They can't see the wry grin and twinkling eyes, you know.
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Arguments against Disfellowshipping
by TheListener ini would like a simple step by step explanation that refutes the disfellowshipping policy as practiced by jehovah's witnesses.. obviously, i don't agree with the policy but i have had trouble making my explanations clear and straightforward.. any help would be appreciated..
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LiveLife
"brief points"
Good one!
Live Life (formerly an AuldSoul)
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59
AURAS......
by freedomloverr inwithout elaborating at length, there has been a lot going on in my life of late and i have sought out some therapies that i have used in the past.
they've helped a lot.
they are more along the lines of *natural* therapies.
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LiveLife
Be careful of the trappings of Yoda.
Mariusuk. <---
Yoda says, "A nutter am I thinking is he."
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35
Death to the Pixies: A few questions, just for you...
by AuldSoul inas an able apologist for jw dogma, i am wondering whether you give me answers with scriptural backing for a few questions.
in other words, whatever your answer is i would like scriptures to support the answer.
i hope that is not too much to ask.. (1) was charles taze russell ever the "faithful and wise steward" assigned to give people their "portion of meat in due season"?.
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LiveLife
Death to the Pixies,
But mostly, I am pained by the one question you repeatedly refused to answer from my initial post. I know why you really chose not to answer it. And that is my answer to your inference that Hebrews 13 should apply to the lead of Jehovah's Witnesses. You can't establish that your religion has any authority, you can't demonstrate that they are legitimately taking the lead. It was this unanswered question that caused me to bypass yours, since "those taking the lead" have not been identified by you as yet.
March 2006 ... and you have yet to Scripturally identify "those taking the lead".
Why is it taking so long? My suspicion is that you have no answer to the question.
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59
AURAS......
by freedomloverr inwithout elaborating at length, there has been a lot going on in my life of late and i have sought out some therapies that i have used in the past.
they've helped a lot.
they are more along the lines of *natural* therapies.
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LiveLife
Care to venture what percent of speakers didn't believe what they were saying?
None of the speakers believed everything they said. Most believed the majority of what they said.
As far as I know it can't be useful as a truth detector, it can only be used to tell whether the person believes what they are saying.
