the jehovah's witnesses claim that jesus christ is michael the archangel.
they, the jehovah's witnesses, use 1 thessalonians 4:16, among many others, as a proof text for their claim.
for question #3) what does angel mean in this passage of scripture, if this angel is not a created angel?
Farkel-->Who is the Angel of the Lord?
A guy named "Stanley." He lives in a tenement in downtown Brooklyn, is on welfare, and smokes cigarettes.
I dare you to prove me wrong!
Farkel>>
I am not going to touch that one ! LOL You two, Farkel and gsx, are too funny! Thanks for your responses though.
the jehovah's witnesses claim that jesus christ is michael the archangel.
they, the jehovah's witnesses, use 1 thessalonians 4:16, among many others, as a proof text for their claim.
for question #3) what does angel mean in this passage of scripture, if this angel is not a created angel?
gsx1138-->Who is the Angel of the Lord?Everyone knows that it is Horus.
LOL! That is a good one!
the jehovah's witnesses claim that jesus christ is michael the archangel.
they, the jehovah's witnesses, use 1 thessalonians 4:16, among many others, as a proof text for their claim.
for question #3) what does angel mean in this passage of scripture, if this angel is not a created angel?
The Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel. They, The Jehovah's Witnesses, use 1 Thessalonians 4:16, among many others, as a proof text for their claim. This is one of the verses that they use as follows...
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
To get a good handle on this situation and the claim of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is to go back to the Old Testament and see if we can find scripture to aid us in understanding who Jesus Christ really is.
However, I believe that it is imperative to get a snapshot in time, from the New Testament, to see why this question is asked. The Scriptures state in
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So, We find that in the beginning was the Word. This refers to the Old Testament. I will go one step further. The Scriptures state in
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So, Now, we know that in the beginning was the Word (Old Testament) and the Word became flesh (New Testament), according to scripture. This is a very important point here to understand who Jesus Christ really is.
Now, Let us begin with and take a close look at Genesis 48:15-16 as follows
Genesis 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
I chose this passage of scripture to start with because if you do not read this verse correctly, you will completely miss out on a great Truth of the Bible, God's Holy Word! In my opinion of course. These two verses of the Old Testament touches upon a very important facet of scripture, as well.
Look at that passage of scripture really close. What do you see? In verse 15, we see God mentioned and then we see, in verse 16, "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil,".
There are several questions that comes to my mind which are 1) Who is this Angel which redeemed me from all evil? 2) Is the Angel which redeemed me from all evil a created angel? 3) What does Angel mean in this passage of scripture, if this angel is not a created angel?
Well, Upon further study of the Bible, we find several scriptures that help us understand this passage in Genesis 48. I will list these verses for you now as follows...
Genesis 16:7-13, Genesis 22:11, 15-18, Genesis 28:13, Genesis 31:11-13, Genesis 32:24-31, Genesis 48:15-16, Exodus 3:2-6, 7-10, 11-14, Exodus 13:21, Exodus 14:19-20, Numbers 22:35-38, Judges 2:1-5, Judges 6:11-21, Judges 13, 1 Kings 19, 1 Chronicles 21:18, 2 Samuel 24, 2 Kings 19:35, Zechariah 1:12, and finally Psalm 40:7.
A very important aspect of Scripture is that the Bible proves itself. If we do not understand something about a passage of scripture, We can rely on the Bible to help us out in understanding what a particular verse is saying. Now, I will use scripture to prove each question from the Old Testament and show you something that is very much Bible Truth, in my humble opinion.
For Question #1) Who is this Angel which redeemed me from all evil? Upon further study of Genesis, we find that answer to this question in Genesis 22:11. When we look at Genesis 22:11, we find that the Angel which redeemed me from all evil mentioned in Genesis 48:16 is the Angel of the Lord. This is a very important person in the Old Testament that appears several times in scripture.
Matter of fact, The Angel of the Lord is only found in the Old Testament. After the Old Testament was written, The Angel of the Lord is not ever mentioned again in scripture. Bearing in mind, any mention of angel in the New Testament is not the same as the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.
Now, At this point, another question should come to mind. Who is this Angel of the Lord? There are several passages of scripture in the Old Testament that are available to examine. But, What I will do is post one or two and give you the rest to read for yourself.
But first, Allow me to say this. The Angel of the Lord is more literally translated by some as the Angel of Jehovah. Because the word Lord and Jehovah are interchangeable. Another way of saying this is the Angel of God.
For Question #3) What does Angel mean in this passage of scripture, if this angel is not a created angel? The Hebrew word Mal'ak means messenger or one who is dispatched as deputy. Keeping in mind that a created angel can act as a messenger of God, but a created angel will never act as a Deputy of God. Why? Created Angels can't be God!
We know that Jehovah God, himself, speaks and acts as God in scripture. No problem here on that point. The most unique point about this Angel of the Lord is that He also speaks and acts as God, as well, though He is the messenger of Jehovah or messenger of God.
The conduct of the Angel of the Lord follows precisely the Jewish Law of Agency. Which clearly indicates distinction between Jehovah and the Angel of the Lord. In other words, They are not the same person. So, Who is this Angel of the Lord? As stated above, He acts and speaks as God. Do we have any proof of this claim?
When we look at the exchange between hagar and the Angel of the Lord, in Genesis 16:7-13, We find something very important. Hagar refers to the Angel of the Lord as El Roi. El means God and Roi means the seeing one. Which means that hagar called the Angel of the Lord, Thou, God who seest me! Another common way of saying this is Jehovah, The God who sees! And, This exchange took place in a very unique way. In the KJV she states as follows...
Genesis 16:13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
In other words, Hagar did not speak to a spirit being, she spoke to the Angel of the Lord who appeared to her as a human being because hagar saw him and spoke to him. This is an extremly very important point about the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.
We clearly see here in scripture that the Angel of the Lord shows himself as a human being to Hagar. The Angel of the Lord became flesh and spoke to Hagar. And she identifies this Angel of the Lord in human form as God! Pretty Awesome!
The second example I will use is the scripture found in Exodus 3:2-6. Here we find Moses tending a flock of sheep and He sees a burning bush that is not being consumed by the fire. This is taking place near Horeb, the Mountain of God.
In the KJV, We see as follows...
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exodus 3:4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exodus 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
As we can see, Verse 2 states that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in a flame. Ok, Sounds fine so far, but, when we look at verse 4 we see that the Angel of the Lord is God.
Why? Because verse 4 states that ==God== called unto him, Moses, and said Moses, Moses. When we look back at verse 2, again, we see the Angel of the Lord is appearing to Moses. Therefore, The Angel of the Lord is God.
So, We have shown that the Angel of the Lord is most definitely God. Now, to answer my second question at the beginning of this post.
Is the Angel which redeemed me from all evil a created angel? Most definitely NOT! I believe that I have shown that the Angel which redeemed me from all evil is no created angel but God himself fulfilling the duties given to Him as a messenger.
Because if someone was to say yes, Then they have to come to the inescapable conclusion that Jehovah is a created angel. And, We know that this is not what the Bible teaches about Jehovah.
MrBusy
which is more important-religion or family?.
which would you choose if you had to?
if a family member was going to be killed if you carried on 'participating' in the religion-what would you do?.
Heaven-->Family of course.
My family may feel differently but I would definatly put them first. Im not sure they would do the same. Guess thats something I just have to live with.>>
Heaven, I don't know your family, but I would say that they would be there for you. At least I would hope so. Regardless of what has happened in the past, in my humble opinion, Maam, Family ties are lasting. Sometimes, Though, I can truly understand why some would want those family ties broken. They seem to get in the way at times. God bless!
MrBusy
which is more important-religion or family?.
which would you choose if you had to?
if a family member was going to be killed if you carried on 'participating' in the religion-what would you do?.
Truthseeker1-->They will use the example of Abraham and Isaac, sacrifice your family for Jehovah, and you will be blessed....GAG>>
Interesting comment, Truthseeker1! When you look at Genesis 22, You will find that Isaac was to be offered as a sacrifice. But, Isaac was not sacrificed at all. In my opinion, God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey the instructions given to him to the letter. Abraham did obey and God blessed him by stopping the Isaac sacrifice and providing a lamb caught in the thicket nearby.
MrBusy
some historians date the beginning of the end of the soviet empire to the chernobyl disaster, for the reason that for several days after the explosion, as the radioactive cloud floated quietly over europe, the soviet government said nothing to warn people of the dangers that may have minimized some of the exposure.
it ruined their credibility, from which they never recovered.
presently, the whole capitalist system has an even worse credibility problem.
You know-->Confidence is a very fragile and delicate thing that can easily be shattered. The Watchtower's credibility is equally in question in the minds of some due to numerous policy quaffs and outright lying and hypocrisy and seeming indifference to the ferment taking place in the organization.>>
I will agree with you on your point of confidence being fragile and delicate. So many times in life our confidence is shattered towards others due to dishonesty, for example, regardless of topic or situation at hand. In my mind, The only way to ensure that our confidence is not harmed in any way is to be truthful with each other. Bearing in mind, However, Honesty can be quite painful. But, On the other hand, tis better to hurt now than to hurt later. When you hurt later, The pain seems to be more intense, in my humble opinion.
As far as the Watchtower is concerned, Their teaching is, It is alright to lie to someone who is not deserving to know the Truth. How so? The Bible was written for everyone, in my opinion, to read and to understand! Not just a select few. Christ died for everyone. Not for just a few.
MrBusy
which is more important-religion or family?.
which would you choose if you had to?
if a family member was going to be killed if you carried on 'participating' in the religion-what would you do?.
Moe-->Good question to proove how brainwashed dubs are.
DUH! MY FAMILY!!! Anybody that would turn thier back on thier family in favor of a God is nuts. If God is love, he will understand our human "error" in protecting our blood.>
I would say that I would agree with you here, Moe. The Family unit is very important in the eyes of God. My opinion of course.
i, myself are not a witness, i am 18, male and live in england.. six months ago i met a 17 year old jehovah's witness, became very attached to her and grew to love her.
her mother does not approve of the relationship at all and has resorted to threats to throw her out, grounding her, ignoring her, contacting elders, unless she discontinues seeing me.
first question: if her not seeing me makes her very unhappy and her seeing me makes her very happy-why is it wrong that we stay together?
RR-->Yes God wants you to be happy. However, Jehovah's Witnesses do not approve of "outsiders." They are afraid you will steal her away from not only the religion but from serving God.>>
Howdy, RR!! What's happening? Good to see you again. God Bless!
bible's view: women can hold positions in the congregation.
proof?
ro 16:1
Yeru-->Dungbeetle,
If you can show me biblically that women were heads of congregations then I'll gladly retract my statement.>>
When Paul made his introduction of Phebe, I believe that Paul was introducing her as a deaconness of the Church in CenChrea. The term deaconness is someone who is a Christian teacher or servant of the Church. Deaconness does also mean pastor.
I believe that women play a key role in leadership because that is their responsibility to nurture the family (Children) at home. This is very difficult today due to both the man and wife having to devote time to employment outside of the home.
They can also do this, teach and nurture, in Church through Sunday school for example. So, In my mind, Women do play a very key role in leadership positions that men do not function that well in. My opinion of course.
this was culled from our good friends at justjw's (plus unseen, evil apostates thing is, i can't tell if the poster is genuine or trying to plant a few seeds if you know what i mean?
[nudge, nudge, wink, wink.....].
what do you guys think?.
Puffsrule-->
I think he is serious...he is one of those posters who seems convinced of the JW's. His other posts are very earnest.
Typical dub...
I believe that the post is serious as well. One point that I did not see the poster bring out was the fact that the clothes of the Nation of Isreal did not wear out. Neither did their shoes. Pretty awesome to wear clothing that lasts for 40 years +.
The Bible teaches that God will supply all of your needs. This does not mean that you will get everything that you want. God is very good! All of the time!
