Read this thread, quite a bit of powerful and useful information from the tower's own publication.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=16572&site=3
Freeman
i thought of a reply you may want to try if you do in fact get a visit from the elders on dec. 25th.
if they indicate that you can be df'd or da'd for celebrating christmas, you could ask them why it was okay for the organization to celebrate it back in the early days and that it was endorsed by brother russell and brother rutherford even though they knew it was a pagan holiday.
there's a quote in one of the old publications where rutherford actually talks about the paganism and commercialism of christmas and then goes on to say "we might as well join in with the rest of the world in celebrating this holiday.
Read this thread, quite a bit of powerful and useful information from the tower's own publication.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=16572&site=3
Freeman
is anyone watching jeopardy right now?
under the topic, nebuchadnezzar, the answer was something like, "in 586 or 587 b.c., this city was captured by nebuchadnezzar....blah blah blah.
" i wonder how many jdubs flipped out about that one!
I saw that and yelled out the answer nice and loud since my jdub wife had it on in the next room. J However, I think it went over her head as you might expect, but I did complement her for getting the next Babylon related question correct. Got to go, I have an on-line class in 10 min that I did not study for, but it should be interesting to question her later about the date.
Freeman
just heard on the news the spanish navy got a tip from us intelligence and with that info seized a north koran ship loaded with 12 scud missiles on its way to yemen, with a final destination of iraq or iran.
look like bush called it correctly, an axis of evil indeed.. .
freeman edited by - freeman on 10 december 2002 18:49:40.
Just heard on the news the Spanish Navy got a tip from US intelligence and with that info seized a North Koran ship loaded with 12 scud missiles on its way to Yemen, with a final destination of Iraq or Iran. Look like Bush called it correctly, an axis of evil indeed.
Freeman
Edited by - freeman on 10 December 2002 18:49:40
it hit me a few days ago.
what happens if the u.n. searchs iraq and they find nothing?
i mean it's kind of scary to think what will happen to bush's job approval rating if that happens.
I dont think that Bush is relying to much on this UN team and IMHO he shouldnt, considering that the teams head honcho was unable to find any evidence of nukes 10 years ago which we know Saddam has or had through acquired documents, and when the head of the Iraqi nuke program defected and spilled his guts, and lastly confirmed now by admittance of an Iraqi spokesmen just yesterday. Its a case of the blind leading the blind.
As far as justification for the US entering into war with Iraq, the fact that they are currently hosting a top Al-Qaeda leader on there own soil who is on the FBIs most wanted list and refuse to hand him over to US authorities is enough alone. Add to that the fact that they are currently supplying financial aid as well as facilitating terrorist training camps on their soil is a good reason too. This falls under the so-called Bush doctrine of if you harbor terrorist then you are a terrorist etc. That is what he used to destroy the Taliban government.
Last but not least is the fact that UN sanctioned over flights in the no-fly zone are currently being shot at almost every day. Again this too is reason enough all by its self.
There are of course many side issues such as the fact that Bush has a hard-on for Saddam, the world would like to keep the oil flowing feely, the official objective of the US as articulated by former US president Bill Clinton is regime change, and everyone would like to see this dictator gone as he is genuinely a very nasty guy everyone would be better off without. These reasons dont constitute a legal or moral reason to go to war, but the others I listed above certainly do.
Should we go to war? I just dont know. I personally hope we dont, but I have had to put in a lot of overtime at my job to make sure that if we do we will be ready; and trust me WE ARE READY.
Freeman
Edited by - freeman on 9 December 2002 10:23:54
Edited by - freeman on 9 December 2002 10:25:45
facinating results from a global poll relating to public opinions of america in various countries around the world.. [url] http://www.torontostar.com/nasapp/cs/contentserver?pagename=thestar/layout/article_type1&c=article&cid=1035775217105&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724[/url].
a major survey on international opinion released in washington yesterday shows u.s. popularity has plunged across much of the world amid mounting perceptions that the united states is running roughshod over other nations.
the planet's sole superpower commands only tepid affection, just as the u.s. government struggles to win international support for a possible military incursion against iraq as the next stage in its war on terrorism.. in fact, the prospect of a u.s.-led offensive aimed at overthrowing iraqi dictator saddam hussein has become a major irritant between washington and even its closest allies.. .
Realist,
Let me get this straight because sometimes Im a little slow especially before I have had a sufficient amount of coffee. The reason we dont take over oil rich countries such as Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. is because we are afraid some people (the world community) may say bad things about us if we did.
Is this the same world community that mostly condemns us for our staunch support of Israel? Is this the same world community that did nothing for years and years in Bosnia as an entire people were being systematically cleansed. Remember the little ethnic cleansing thingy they had going on there? Whose lives were we saving again, oh yes Muslims, no wonder they hate us so. Sorry I got side tracked, anyway I am having a hard time understanding this.
My education is mostly technical so I dont have a whole lot of background on world affairs and economics, but as a freshman I was required to take lots and lots of courses that I didnt think I would ever put to good use. One of the business courses they made me take and that sticks out in my mind was Global Economics. If I recall correctly, Dr. G. made us use the CIAs world fact book to learn about the exports of many nations. (BTW today you can get the CIAs world fact book online for free, pretty useful info)
Dr. G. made me learn a lot of stuff I thought I would never put to good use, looks like maybe I just found a use because I dont recall Bosnia or for that matter Israel being a big exporter of oil. So Im wondering, exactly what is it that we do get from them, I mean besides grief and a lot of complaining from the world community? Im wondering just when the USA will conquer these nations in an elegant way as you have put it.
Again, Im no expert on this type of stuff, but I just have a hard time seeing some of the actions the US takes as totally mercenary, perhaps I need more coffee.
Freeman
Edited by - freeman on 6 December 2002 9:58:54
facinating results from a global poll relating to public opinions of america in various countries around the world.. [url] http://www.torontostar.com/nasapp/cs/contentserver?pagename=thestar/layout/article_type1&c=article&cid=1035775217105&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724[/url].
a major survey on international opinion released in washington yesterday shows u.s. popularity has plunged across much of the world amid mounting perceptions that the united states is running roughshod over other nations.
the planet's sole superpower commands only tepid affection, just as the u.s. government struggles to win international support for a possible military incursion against iraq as the next stage in its war on terrorism.. in fact, the prospect of a u.s.-led offensive aimed at overthrowing iraqi dictator saddam hussein has become a major irritant between washington and even its closest allies.. .
Realist,
I like you handle, it fits you well. You are of course correct when you say:
freeman,i think you grossly underestimate the US government...they are not morons...the don't do anything without order and approval of the different lobbies.they give a shit about human rights and certainly don't do anything because theywant to bring freedom to the world.
No they are not morons, not by a long shot and indeed they
do care about human rights, and no its not just about oil
as some so simplicity believe. Oil is only one factor.
If we were greedy for oil, what would it take to take over
Kuwait? Like maybe an afternoon perhaps? And what do you think
it would take to take over Saudi Arabia, like about a day
to level the palaces perhaps? No the US government wants free
flowing oil at market prices and not in the hands of a nutcase
like Bushs friend in Iraq.
I love it when I hear people call Bush a moron, it means he
has successfully fooled yet another one. Did it ever occur to
these same people that the moron is the most educated person
to ever occupy 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. and that this jerk holds
an MBA from Harvard and also degrees from Yale? Could you get
into Harvard or Yale with your SAT AP scores? Think money or
who your daddy is will get you in? Think again, it doesnt
work like that at these institutions. Do you know what the
Laffer curve is? Ill bet GW knows, and thats why cutting
taxes to increase revenue overall makes sense, again
confounding his detractors, but then most of his detractors
are not self made millionaires, are they?
That said however, lets get one thing straight, GW Bush is a
cowboy in the true sense of the word. Is that a bad thing?
Maybe, maybe not. He says what he means and he does what he
says. He is very simple that way, he also mangles the English
language like few others can, but when push comes to shove,
he will kick ass. Some will not like that, others will
applaud it. Again Im not offering overt praise or ridicule
of our government or its leaders, just what I believe to be a
balanced and realistic viewpoint based on what I know.
Freeman
facinating results from a global poll relating to public opinions of america in various countries around the world.. [url] http://www.torontostar.com/nasapp/cs/contentserver?pagename=thestar/layout/article_type1&c=article&cid=1035775217105&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724[/url].
a major survey on international opinion released in washington yesterday shows u.s. popularity has plunged across much of the world amid mounting perceptions that the united states is running roughshod over other nations.
the planet's sole superpower commands only tepid affection, just as the u.s. government struggles to win international support for a possible military incursion against iraq as the next stage in its war on terrorism.. in fact, the prospect of a u.s.-led offensive aimed at overthrowing iraqi dictator saddam hussein has become a major irritant between washington and even its closest allies.. .
Realist,
You said:
freeman,
very good post...however, i don't think the idea behind intervening in foreign countries is genuinly good...its not most of the time...its aimed at protecting US industry interests and NOT to help the poeple in the respective country or the average american!
do you really think the US freed kuwait to help the kuwaities? or bombed vietnam to help the vietnamese? or put sanctions against japan before 1942 to help the chinese and koreans? in all these cases it was not the main intention to help people but to protect the US industry and US influence in the world.
Realist,
By your statement I perceive that you believe the following:
2. Protecting American industry interests, the interest of the Vietnamese, Kuwaitis, Chinese and Koreans are mutually exclusive.
All I can say is that IMO the American government believes they have some responsibility (some of it for generally noble reasons and some it self-imposed for political ends) to interfere in world affairs and sometimes they run roughshod of world sentiment when they flex their muscles. What some fail to see is the truly simplistic mindset of our American government. The mindset is so simplistic that its almost unfathomable to some. In a nutshell it is this what is good for America is also good for the rest of the world.
When they bombed the crap out of North Vietnam and North Korea, they thought they were protecting the world (and themselves) from the advancement of communism. When they bombed the crap out of Iraq and forced the Iraqis out of Kuwait, they believed they were protecting the worlds oil supply from the dictates of a madman. We are going to do it all over again.
Think of it as a cowboy type attitude, because that is more or less what it is. Im not defending it, nor am I condemning it, but that is what it is. Of course I may be completely off base because these are only my thoughts.
Freeman
is it just me but do the society have a fixation on the nazis and the relatively few witness martyrs?.
i was skimming through the jan 15th 2003 watchtower, and came across a couple of photos of brothers who were in concentration camps that i must have seen a 100 times before.
then, on the back there something about ones who died at the hands of the nazis in hungary.. now dont get me wrong, i know that what happen at the hands on the nazis was truly awful, and that many of those who died were people whose faith at least i can admire.
Oh yes, the Dark Tower likes to play the Nazi card as often as then can. I remember reading a write-up on how the Tower of Evil expanded the numbers of slain or imprisoned Nazi era JWs whenever they needed to make the numbers look good; playing it for all it was worth. I think maybe it was Allen F. that penned this gem.
It seems their own paper trail has always been their worst enemy. I only wish the people that ran the Holocaust museum could have read the words of the Tower before making the JWs part of the exhibit. IMHO the Declaration of Facts gives a pretty good insight into the mindset of Nazi era Tower leaders.
Freeman
facinating results from a global poll relating to public opinions of america in various countries around the world.. [url] http://www.torontostar.com/nasapp/cs/contentserver?pagename=thestar/layout/article_type1&c=article&cid=1035775217105&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724[/url].
a major survey on international opinion released in washington yesterday shows u.s. popularity has plunged across much of the world amid mounting perceptions that the united states is running roughshod over other nations.
the planet's sole superpower commands only tepid affection, just as the u.s. government struggles to win international support for a possible military incursion against iraq as the next stage in its war on terrorism.. in fact, the prospect of a u.s.-led offensive aimed at overthrowing iraqi dictator saddam hussein has become a major irritant between washington and even its closest allies.. .
Unfortunately this is probably a fair assessment.
American foreign policy is without a doubt a large contributor of much of the anti-American feelings. Having held a security clearance higher then that of most military personnel, and having several friends in the intelligence community, I can tell you first hand that the United States has VERY dirty hands that would shock the average citizen should such become common knowledge, but it wont however. We are not always the good guys most Americans think we are, but from everything Ive read and heard, we are the better of the bunch and the intent is genuinely good, but as for the results, well ... its not always so good. That little tidbit aside, what the average American knows even about there own OVERT foreign policy is abysmal let alone the secret COVERT operations.
American ignorance about the rest of the planet is astonishing to say the least. When visitors from other countries come to the states, they invariably do their best to observe local customs and even try their best to speak the local language. On the other hand, Americans visiting foreign lands assume the populace should adapt to the superior American ways, and funny as it may sound, they think that if they say the words s-l-o-w-l-y anyone can understand their brand of English.
Other things to consider are that there is indeed some amount of jealously because we are who we are; the lone so-called superpower, God I hate that term. Our very existence IS A THREAT to some who wish to keep their people living in the 16th century. The current ruling class would loose much if not all of its power should their citizens become Americanized, which is why we are a threat to some. Yes some people hate us for what we are. Some hate us for what we do. Some hate us for what we dont do, as in not doing enough.
IMHO, overall the world IS a better place because America exists and has great power and influence, however there is MUCH room for improvement not only in the way our government operates, but also how our citizens look at the rest of the planet and how they act when we visit other nations.
Freeman (Being serious for a change and not inciting a flame-war as I like to do now an then).
freeing your family from a cult through family counseling.
i believe a wonderful opportunity was just handed to me by wife, maybe.
she thinks thate my younger son should get some professional counseling because he is not doing his schoolwork and is displaying some classic early signs of depression.
Freeing your family from a cult through family counseling.
I believe a wonderful opportunity was just handed to me by wife, maybe. She thinks thate my younger son should get some professional counseling because he is not doing his schoolwork and is displaying some classic early signs of depression. She said she has other issues and thinks she knows why he is depressed but that it only gets her in trouble if she brings it up.
I know exactly what she is thinking, she is thinking because I now forbid my son to attend meetings (over the blood and shunning issues) this is now affecting his schoolwork. I suggested instead of putting my son on the spot and pointing the finger of blame at him, why dont we all go for family counseling and air anything that is on our mind. She is thinking about it.
Oh boy I cant wait!
Doctor: So tell me Mr. Freeman, just why do you forbid your son to attend these religious meetings, what is your objection?
ME: OK Doctor, since you ask, this is what they are instructing my son to do, read the highlighted portions of this Watch Tower literature and see what you think.
Doctor: Mrs. Freeman are they actually teaching your son that he must have a deep loathing for anyone that has left the JW faith, are all these children on the cover of this magazine really dead because they refused a blood transfusion?
MY WIFE: Well Ohmmm Aaaaa .. Yada Yada Yada, Psalms 83:18, Yada Yada
ME: Ask her what she would do if her son was bleeding to death, ask her what parts of blood are OK and what parts are not, ask her who makes the rules about which parts are OK or not OK Doc.
I hope she goes for it, I know it will do us all a lot of good!
Freeman
Edited by - freeman on 4 December 2002 15:3:6