Posts by Awakened07

63

You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie in

i know that has probably been covered ad infinitum on jwd.

so...... if jehovah is omnipotent, then there is nothing he can't do and nothing he doesn't know.. and, according to jws (as well as most other religions), god is love.

therefore he had to have known, even before creating all of creation, what would happen.

Awakened07

And if this is how things have come about, then we are here to live however long we do, enjoy our life, then die? That's a really good rationalization for people who don't want the restrictions that they feel God places on our lives if we live for Him. This way you can do whatever you want and you don't have to answer to anybody. As for the Jewish concept, jgnat, do you honestly think that after you die you are going to care whether or not you are "living on" in someone else's memory? Or that your wonderful children are carrying on your legacy? Will it help you sleep better in your grave? Not so much tossing and turning perhaps?
It's not that I need God to make my life have meaning, it's just that that is what makes the most sense to me. Please give me reasons (note the plural) for things that you will do in your lifetime that will actually matter once you're dead. Now it's easy to say that such-and-such will mean something to you while you are alive, but when you're no longer alive? Unless of course you argue that after our time here, that is all there is, there is no "after-life" in any way, shape, or form. Then again, that circles back to the question I've been asking. Sure, you generated some kind of meaning in your life by using your great reasoning abilities and you had an absolute blast for all those years you were alive. So what? Let's go ask a corpse if they're satisfied with everything they accomplished in life.

-Sounds like something I would say, 15 - 20 years ago. The Watchtower uses this kind of reasoning all the time: "If this is all there is, where's the point in that? What bigger meaning is there in that? Wouldn't you rather believe you'll live on in warm, furry fuzzyland, skipping about with penguins and lions?" While this is a line of reasoning that is appealing and may seem logical at first, it has no bearing on reality. What I mean is that if reality is that we have come to be with no 'help' from any kind of deity, and there's no afterlife, then that's all reality is. We can say that it's unfair, lacking meaning, not being... 'cozy enough' for our liking... It doesn't matter - not being happy with it won't change reality. It is what it is. Wishing it were otherwise is not an argument.

There are quite a few things I can do in this lifetime that will be beneficial to people who live after me, but of course nothing I do now will mean anything to me personally once I'm dead; that goes without saying, and is only an 'argument' appealing to emotion. I may want a longer/eternal life (I actually do), but then again I may want a million dollars. Reality is I'm very unlikely to ever get my hands on a million dollars. "What about all the things I could buy with that million? Is this all there is? Are you saying I can't buy anything beyond what I can currently afford? No! I refuse to accept it!" Well - refusing to accept it wouldn't put money on my bank account, unfortunately.

As for other points, first you may want to gaze slightly upward to the topic heading of this thread, which says "I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this". This is predominantly an ex-JW forum, and many of the replies and questions here are posed with that in mind, and for active JWs to read (they sometimes lurk and even register), or others who have been JWs or are thinking of becoming JWs. That's why many arguments will have a JW slant to them when it comes to the Bible.

Don't let that fool you into thinking people here haven't researched the Bible, though. I dare say the process of exiting the Witnesses often include quite an extensive Bible study for most, although that study may not always be along the lines of apologetics.

God is omniscient, that means He knows what we are going to do before we do it. That doesn't mean that He's making us do those things (a lot of people make that assumption and therefore assume that there is no free-will, and that if there is no free-will then God isn't what the Bible says He is). It just means that He knows what's going to happen.

If God knows what will happen thousands of years in advance (hence prophecy), that means our actions are predestined. And since we're not the ones predestining them (we don't have that kind of power), someone else would be the one... Who might that be?

Not that I believe God is doing it; this is not an attack on God, but the concept of (a certain) God.

As for meaning and purpose and ethics in life without God, there have been many discussions on this forums along those lines. I propose that while we read the Bible, you should read those threads.

25

Big brother winner returns to JW

by InquiryMan in

a former big brother winner in sweden returns to jw.

excerpt from article:

_ i have always been a believer.

Awakened07

I think - although I don't know the details of this story - that this is the kind of thing that easily happens when JWs leave not because they've researched the religion, but because they fall in love with a non-JW and just suddenly therefore exit, or they leave in a huff as a rebellion against their strict parents, wanting to experience everything they haven't been able to on the 'inside'. So they run out there and try everything, but then ultimately find that it feels empty, and then they start thinking of what they were taught, and since they left not because they had researched it, they more easily return, ashamed at the life they have led and even more easily pliable than they were before they left. They don't have the tools to cope with the loss of a world view, and nothing to substitute it with except sex, drugs and alcohol. So when they finally calm down, sit on the couch and think about things, they long for the seeming comfort, security and love they felt in the org and family, and return.

10

Accurate Knowledge and the "Faithful Slave"

by Honesty in

page 24 paragraph 14 in the april 1, 2006 watchtower magazine says the following:.

gods organization plays a vital role in our spiritual growth.

it provides a wealth of bible publications that help us to grow in accurate knowledge, to act wisely when we are faced with problems, and to cultivate a close relationship with god.

Awakened07

Yeah, they are a little all over the place when it comes to explaining how exactly they get their revelations of new light. At times, they'll say that they're just a bunch of guys really deeply researching the Bible and other written works and do their best, while praying, to figure it out (like anyone else could equally do themselves). Other times, they'll say they're God's only channel. As God's only channel, it must mean they are "channeling" something directly, otherwise you're not a channel. So they are inspired. But, of course not in the same way as the biblical writers were. They are spirit directed. There's a difference. And the difference is.... anyone's guess.

Fact is, they're a bunch of guys reading, discussing, guessing and voting on which of those guesses millions of people should believe.

97

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou in

it's obvious right?

your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence.

what kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?.

Awakened07

This thread is a lesson in futility.

It is also a lesson, I think, in "Pascal's wagerism"; 'I choose to believe, just in case'.

What we take as a priori knowledge of our surroundings and our senses, are pieces of information that make certain predictions. "If this is the case, then this should also be the case". "Is it?" "Yes, it turns out it is". OK, so we've found one tiny piece of 'truth' about our surroundings. Step by step, these pieces of 'truth' accumulate, and gives us a pretty reliable composite image of reality. It's not a case of 'anything goes, and is equally valid'. IMO.

As for 'ganging up on snowbird', it's unfortunate that she becomes the focus of attention, but I think she represents quite a few people in society and people who post here. Plus, others should feel free to 'gang back'.

I personally, am out (see top of post).

10

Mounting evidence for evolution.

by godadist in

jw
friends

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30473_science-_more_transitional_fossils_discovered/comments/#ctop.

science: more transitional fossils discoveredwed, jun 25, 2008 at 4:53:34 pm pst.

new fossil discoveries by paleontologist per ahlberg are filling in more of the gaps in our knowledge of the transition from sea creatures to land-dwelling vertebrates: fossil helps document shift from sea to land.. new fossils of an ancient, four-limbed creature help fill in the blanks of the evolutionary transition between fish and the first land-adapted vertebrates.. fossils of creatures that span the water-to-land transition of vertebrates are few and far between.

Awakened07

Well, that was not at all how I wanted that post to look... I forgot we now have embed YouTube video capabilities... Oh well...

[edited to add] Aargh - not my day... [/edited]

10

Mounting evidence for evolution.

by godadist in

jw
friends

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30473_science-_more_transitional_fossils_discovered/comments/#ctop.

science: more transitional fossils discoveredwed, jun 25, 2008 at 4:53:34 pm pst.

new fossil discoveries by paleontologist per ahlberg are filling in more of the gaps in our knowledge of the transition from sea creatures to land-dwelling vertebrates: fossil helps document shift from sea to land.. new fossils of an ancient, four-limbed creature help fill in the blanks of the evolutionary transition between fish and the first land-adapted vertebrates.. fossils of creatures that span the water-to-land transition of vertebrates are few and far between.

Awakened07

H E L L O !

63

You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie in

i know that has probably been covered ad infinitum on jwd.

so...... if jehovah is omnipotent, then there is nothing he can't do and nothing he doesn't know.. and, according to jws (as well as most other religions), god is love.

therefore he had to have known, even before creating all of creation, what would happen.

Awakened07

Hey, we can all relate to that thinking process. I mean, if you were to design and construct a new type of defibrillator, and you were somehow able to determine with 100% certainty in advance how your current design would work in a real life situation, you would of course forego that knowledge; choose not to know, to simply make things more interesting. Like a patient dieing. Same if you were to design a car, and you could know how it would work in traffic. Much more exciting not to know. It's the spice of life and all that. So a few people die, so what? It's more fun not knowing.

97

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou in

it's obvious right?

your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence.

what kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?.

Awakened07

Awakened, the evidence for my convictions are all around. I haven't encountered any sound refutation of my beliefs.

Oh, I think you've encountered some. I've seen it happen. But there are various reasons why you feel they are not sound refutations. One such thing - I think - would be that you believe Satan is alive and well and is conspiring and making up stories and luring people away from God with more or less sophisticated philosophies etc.

But - believe it or not, I'm not here to try to take away your faith. I and others like me present our case, you present yours, and we all learn something (perhaps). If you end up keeping your faith in the end, I have no problem with that. If I end up getting a faith, it would be welcomed by me.

That's why I choose to have faith in the God of the Bible.

I'd dare say that would be a reason to have faith in a God. That you have faith in the God of the Bible is caused by your upbringing and what you have learned from studying it. Had you been born somewhere else, those same 'things all around you' would have been attributed to for instance Allah, with similar arguments, evidence (both scriptural, factual, and spiritual) and conviction.

IMO, of course.

97

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou in

it's obvious right?

your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence.

what kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?.

Awakened07

It's obvious right? Your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence. What kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?

I think you may find this thread helpful.

10

Is "Adamic sin"confined to humankind?

by changeling in

jw
friends

i seem to recall that that is the wt's stand.

well, if that's the case:.

other than the damage humans have caused to the environment, what's up with animals with disease and birth defects, plant diseases and weather related catastrophes?.

Awakened07

Well - I was going to start a similar topic, but I guess I can paste my post here instead:

So - - animals and man were created by God. Man disobeyed, and got punished for it. Cursed, even. No record in the Bible of animals doing anything wrong, except for the snake, which was just used as a puppet anyway (if we are to believe that all scriptures are inspired and that what it says in the NT about this is true, and not just a way to explain the 'original snake' in a way that is easier to swallow).
Now - animals were not cursed, except - again - the snake, which from then on had to crawl on its belly and eat dust. But, if I'm not mistaken, that part of the story is not to be taken literally, as it's part of a prophecy (at least it is now).
OK. So, since animals did not sin, and were therefore not cursed, we must assume they were the same all along. They lived, were sometimes in pain, and died, throughout.
Thing is - - animals definitely feel physical pain. Animal owners or people who observe animals - heck, anyone - would say so, and that they sometimes at least look like they feel emotional pain as well. If you've ever seen a video of someone mistreating an animal (I can't watch those for more than a second or two, I'm enraged so much), you'll see and hear that they definitely feel physical pain and anguish.
Animals get similar diseases to us, and they have a few of their very own. Eve was cursed with painful childbirth (meaning it wouldn't have been painful until then), while animals have always birthed somewhat in pain (at least mammals); no pre-curse condition for them to explain why. I haven't talked to a horse or a great ape about it, but I assume that more or less the same physical limitations exist in other mammals as in humans; push a large object through a small orifice with many nerve endings and you will experience some pain. Animals are more quiet about it though; they have to be in order to survive out there by not drawing attention to themselves.
So - animals are born in pain, live, experience good times and bad, get sick, feel pain and stress at times throughout, and die. Sometimes 'prematurely', to serve as food for us, for other animals or due to painful diseases or "wear and tear" from our use.
What did animals do to deserve all this? For humans it was a curse. And apparently, there are plans in place for our 'restitution'. For animals, it was... intended? I'm not so much talking about death (although that too), but more about pain, diseases, and suffering while living.
Is the answer that they were simply created to be nothing more than food for us, vehicles to in various ways carry mankind on their shoulders (literally and figuratively)? To remind us of our mortality and of pain?
Is God a little "Meh..." when it comes to animal feelings and lives?
Will animals eventually get their 'restitution'?