Awakened07

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Posts by Awakened07

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  115

  Do YOU Look Like YOUR Avatar/JWD mini-pic

  by RAYZORBLADE in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  do you look like your jwd profile pic?.

  just curious.. that stupid pic of me in a columbia rain jacket is real.

  it's 2 yrs.

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  Awakened07

  Yes, I'm rushing through space, bug-eyed and blue in the face.

  No, but except for that I actually kinda do look like my avatar.
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  7

  Demons and inanimate objects

  by TheListener in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in another thread vm44 asked if there was any biblical precedent to a demon attaching itself to an inanimate object.. no one answered on that thread yet.

  i don't recall any such thing being in the bible.. does anyone have a scripture that shows the demons can attach or demonize an inanimate object?.

  if not, then it really does seem plausible that the wts are using the demons just like other religions may use hellfire.

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  Awakened07

  At least, a quick search through the Bible online for "evil spirit" and "demon" gives nothing when it comes to inanimate objects.

  Actually, "evil spirits" seemed to frequently come from another source than you'd expect in the OT.

  But, if there's one thing I've learned, it's not to trust what it says at face value (there's always a
  context and an interpretation of a Hebrew word), so I probably shouldn't even have mentioned it.
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  74

  Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed

  by White Dove in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.

  please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?

  the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .

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  Awakened07

  That is as solid an evidence as you are going to get with any ancient figure, and the mention of lack of reference in other writings of the period is an argument from silence. This is a bad place to start building a case against the existence of a figure that outside his small group of followers was an insignificant figure; a no-name agitator that was unceremoniously executed.

  In fairness, 'any ancient figure' didn't actually heal the sick, actually raise the dead and actually feed thousands of people with a basket of food, in addition to claiming to be God ('s son), actually having supernatural phenomenons happen at his death, actually being resurrected etc. When I say 'actually', I mean this is not supposed to be some David Copperfield of the first century, but the actual, real deal. So, in light of that, it is a little strange that there are not more extra-biblical writings about him, IMO.

  If there were rock solid evidence of Jesus' existence, we wouldn't need to believe.

  In fairness (again), if there was rock solid evidence of Jesus' existence, people would still have had to choose to believe if the miracles were real and not tricks, and they would still have to choose to believe he was the Messiah. So faith would still be a big part of it, but evidence would have borrowed more credibility to the story. So evidence would not be a bad thing for Christians.

  Imo, the lack of evidence doesn't discredit this christian message.

  It doesn't discredit many of Jesus' teachings, but if he didn't actually exist, or existed but was just a man, that would put a real dampener on the whole 'salvation through him' thing(!). But - lack of evidence, and rock solid evidence, both require faith in what he was said to be.

  But if the entire Bible through-and-through was backed up with solid, physical evidence, and miracles were a little more prevalent in our day, then it would have been easier for skeptics to not be so... skeptical.

  Personally I am currently undecided as to what I believe about the historical Jesus. I am - for lack of a better word (or maybe it is the best word) - agnostic about it.
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  46

  Resurrection Hope - People in the Future who think they have lived before

  by VM44 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to the watchtower, a resurrected being is a body that has placed within it the memories and attributes of a person who had lived before.. the "life force" is transferred to the body to bring it alive.

  also according to the watchtower, the "life force" is impersonal and contains no personality.

  it is like electricity in that it is an actuating force.. ok, so in the future there will be billions of people with memories of having lived on the earth.

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  Awakened07

  I wish I could contribute to the thread, 'cause I really want to! But everything has been said already. This topic intrigues me though.

  An exact replica will always be a replica. So, the future person will (if this were all true, of course) feel and think that they are the same person, but the person they were is still long gone! So - great for that future person; not so great for the guy/gal who was supposed to get eternal life.

  A JW will probably 'counter' that "anything is possible with Jehovah". But is it? I mean - perhaps it would be in theory, but JWs don't believe in a spirit that leaves the body when you die. Or do they somehow? Not sure they know themselves. But what is clearly said is that Jehovah will keep people in His memory until they are resurrected, and then the memories etc. are put back into a new body. In that scenario - with only "data" remaining from the original human - it won't matter if "Jehovah can do anything". If it's only the data about the personality that is 'remembered' and put back, then it is a clone, and not the original person.

  Had they believed in a soul, then it would work, 'cause then the person would leave the body at death and live on until it was put back into a future body, but they don't believe that. It's only data; memories, personality etc. that is kept and put back. Actually, most of our personality comes from our upbringing and experiences in this imperfect life, so how much of you would actually be put back into the future perfect human form, in a future, perfect paradise anyway? Would the future person even be a perfect replica of you? No, it would be a 'sanitized' version. A 'sanitized' version of you, that isn't actually you.

  It doesn't add up.
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  59

  My first post

  by BonaFide in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i prayed before i came on here.

  i know that it weird.

  i have been reading here for a long time.

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  Awakened07

  Welcome, BonaFide. I hope you keep reading (and eventually post more).

  You'll find a lot of helpful things here on JWD, but you'll also find a lot of either seemingly weird and/or appalling things, or actually weird and/or 'appalling' things, depending on your perspective along the way.

  Baby steps, and don't take things too seriously here.

  Is it any way possible that JW's may still somehow have the truth?

  Well.... Yes.

  • If God exists, and He chose the name Jehovah, but didn't really care if the proper pronunciation was preserved through the millennia, and didn't care to make sure it was protected from 'tampering' in the book He inspired, but it had to be re-inserted several millennia later by a small American religious group.
  • If God chose an organization in the 20th century, but didn't care if they had the correct information or not, and didn't care to quickly make them change vital teachings that He didn't agree with and obviously knew weren't correct, but instead let them continue to believe falsehoods for decades until He lazily, eventually, decided it was time to change them, sometimes through an 'intermediary step' that was equally false. And with no guarantee that the latest 'truth' will be the final 'truth'.
  • If God doesn't care that members of His organization suffer mental and physical anguish for teachings that are not relevant to the application in our present day.
  • If God doesn't care that members of His organization got tortured and/or died in one country because He had told His FDS that it was wrong to have a political party card there (in a country with one party), while it was OK in another country to bribe officials to get a card showing they had been in the military.
  • If God doesn't care that His organization teaches things that are clearly scientifically proven wrong (and I'm not necessarily talking about evolution here).
  • If God doesn't care that His Faithful and Discreet Slave class prints outright lies, mis-quotations of authorities, and distortions in order to bolster their worldview.
  • If God doesn't care that His organization was partially part of the very organization that He had told them is an abomination and a secular substitute to His Kingdom. Or that His organization immediately disassociated as a UN NGO when they were found out [guilty faces all around].

  Simply put - - If Jehovah simply doesn't care. Then perhaps.

  Of course - from my personal perspective as an atheist/agnostic, I could pile on that list for a long time, and it would become absolutely impossible they have the truth either way, but easy does it.
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  40

  So.....Are Jehovah's Witnesses A "Cult"?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i first joined this board, i felt they had "cultish" aspects but would not go to the point of saying the "c" word.. now, i unequivocally say that jws are a cult!.

  what do you think??

  ?.

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  Awakened07

  Hmm... I almost want to delete my previous post, 'cause I found this page:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist

  Food for thought.
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  40

  So.....Are Jehovah's Witnesses A "Cult"?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i first joined this board, i felt they had "cultish" aspects but would not go to the point of saying the "c" word.. now, i unequivocally say that jws are a cult!.

  what do you think??

  ?.

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  Awakened07

  It's not important for me to call them a 'cult', and an all encompassing definition is hard to find, but they are close to being a religious 'cult' the way the word is most widely used about religious fringe groups in society today, I think.

  Like for instance this Wikipedia page on 'cult'. It mentions most of the various definitions used in various contexts.

  One such context is what it mentions under "Psychological definition":

  Psychological definition

  Studies of the psychological aspects of cults focus on the individual person, and factors relating to the choice to become involved as well as the subsequent effects on individuals. Under one view, an important factor is coercive persuasion which suppresses the ability of people to reason, think critically, and make choices in their own best interest.

  Studies of religious, political, and other cults have identified a number of key steps in this type of coercive persuasion: [25]

  1. People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations;
  2. Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
  3. They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader;
  4. They get a new identity based on the group;
  5. They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled. [26]

  Looking at those 5 bullet points:

  1. This applies to active JWs, "newly recruited" JWs, and those who study with JWs to some extent; They have to ultimately give up friends and family who don't convert. This is emotionally distressing. All the things they know they should do all the time is also emotionally distressing: attend all meetings, prepare for meetings, prepare for field service, go out in field service a 'fitting' amount, etc. etc. It may also be physically distressing in an already hectic daily schedule. Having to decide against a needed blood transfusion for oneself or a family member is clearly emotionally distressing as well, although it happens rarely, but it's real and bad enough for those who do go through it.

  2. The simple explanation is: "Everything will be fixed in the new system, and any unanswered questions will be answered then as well". Not unique to JWs, but it's there as a point.

  3. Not so much from one charismatic leader, and 'unconditional love' is definitely out the window, but they have their "loving" leaders and other members in the congregation and they have the "loving" FDS. Love bombing etc. is not unique to JWs though. But still, another partial point.

  4. This fits as well; you have to change many aspects of your life if you are "recruited" from "the world". Some of it may have positive consequences, though, like quitting smoking. Still, they get an identity as a Jehovah's Witness, and from then on they have to pay close attention to the way they behave, speak, dress etc. in public because they represent the entire organization. Not unique to the Witnesses though. Partial point.

  5. This is semi-true of people becoming Witnesses. They are not thrown in the back of a van and driven out to a house in the desert somewhere, but they are isolated from former friends and family, and the information they have access to will be filtered through the doctrine in the WBTS literature, to such an extent that "access to information" is, in effect, "severely controlled". Certain books are not to be read, and certain information is only to be sought out in the WBTS literature. Other types of information will be filtered by the Witness him/herself, and dismissed if they have been told by the WBTS literature to dismiss it. So this is a valid point.

  So - overall, they do fully or partially fulfill these 'criteria', but I'm not sure it conclusively shows that they are a cult. If so, many other more or less mainstream churches are cults as well. Oh... they are... Well, OK then.

  Steve Hassan's model is closer to how the JWs world works, IMO:

  B.I.T.E.

  Steven Alan Hassan, former member of the Unification Church, and now an exit counselor and mental health counselor, has developed his own model, the BITE Model, to determine how destructive mind control can be understood in terms of four basic components, which form the acronym BITE:

  1. Behavior Control
  2. Information Control
  3. Thought Control
  4. Emotional Control

  It is important to understand that destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause. It is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present. Mind controlled cult members can live in their own apartments, have nine-to-five jobs, be married with children, and still be unable to think for themselves and act independently. [27]
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  16

  What if

  by John Doe in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we've misunderstood the nature of the universe again, and the solar system really does revolve around the earth while appearing as if the planets are evolving around the sun?

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  Awakened07

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCy48nOwi6g

  
  (the video is actually a tongue-in-cheek refutation
  of certain fundie creationist thought processes, but
  I thought it fit well here)
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  58

  What is your strangest "supernatural" JW story?

  by donny in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i had just became a witness and a guy i worked with, who was also a jw, told me a story that actually made me laugh and i think it upset him a bit.

  the storys were almost always in the third person.

  it went as follows.. this brothers wife and him were sitting at the kingdom hall on the end seats of the row next to the back of the room.

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  Awakened07

  Wind-up walking Smurf doll:

  
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  103

  Jeremiah and the 70 years. Jewish exile or Babylonian rule?

  by digderidoo in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i have never until a few days ago been able to reconcile the 70 year prophecy with the 587/6 bce date for jerusalems destruction.

  although a post was about this in a previous thread by a@g , i would like to explore this more.. when the 70 years are applied to babylonian rule, rather than the jewish exile everything seems to make sense.. to ellaborate for those who haven't come across it, this is how 587/6 does match the 70 year prophecy.. i hope a@g doesn't mind but i have cut and paste his post:-.

  the 587 date does match the bible.... (jeremiah 25:11) 11 and all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of babylon seventy years.".

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  Awakened07

  Awakened 07,

  All i can say is that it does for me. When i was a JW i used to love explaining the 1914 prophecy and showing how the maths worked out. It was one of those things i used to use to "prove" to other people that this is the "truth". I was a few years out when i came across this descrepency, for me it was always the one thing that stopped me going to a meeting all those years. I have always been a person that can look at both sides of an argument, unless there is a 100% reasoning leaning on one side.

  Because i have always felt this way, although i may not agree with WT explanations of other criticisms, i have always seen their point of view. The 607 v 587/6 debate for me if it can be proved one way or the other IS the defining thing that will either keep me away or make me go to a meeting.

  Paul

  Well - I can respect that you feel that way, I guess, with that background to it. But it seems nonsensical to me. It seems you've got it ass-backwards. What you're saying (as I hear it) is that it's OK for them to be 99% wrong, as long as this one particular 'prophecy' can somehow be streamlined to fit 1914, when (fortunately for them) a world war broke out. Or you simply don't see any problems in all the other discrepancies in the first place.

  One thing I forgot to mention in my last post, was their stance on being 'appointed by Jesus in1919'. He apparently 'cleaned house' in 1918 and subsequently chose them in 1919. But, as has been pointed out before, they celebrated Christmas and a whole lot of other things went on that they'd be disfellowshipped for had they believed the same today.

  But most importantly in that regard: They taught that Jesus had come invisibly in 1874 for years after 1919, when they were 'chosen'. [See this link - they did so at least until 1935, btw; that's as far as I bothered to check] You'd think Jesus himself would have fixed that little doosy as soon as He had chosen them, and not let them have an erroneous view of the date He returned, for years afterwards? That combined with all the other 'false beliefs' at the time; did Jesus simply not care at all? Why did He teach them that what He himself had said a couple of thousand years ago about "this generation" meant a generation from 1914, then flip-flop on it for decades to come, then finally (so far!) completely throw all that out the window this year and 'say' "Ooops - I really actually meant the anointed as a group - sorry folks".

  They are the frickin' "God's only channel on earth today"!! Come on now! Is it just not important for God/Jesus? They just don't care at all if people have false beliefs for decades and perhaps their entire lives? Don't give a s**t? Don't have the power to steer them quickly in the right direction?

  -If you have the 2007 Watchtower publications CD-ROM, do a search for 1919, and the fourth link from the top of the search should be "Commissioned to speak in the Divine Name", from 1971. There, you can find this quote (paragraph 24):

  Why, though, are all these facts of history brought to our attention? It is to show the fulfillment of prophecy. Jehovah has found and commissioned his modern-day "Ezekiel." It is a composite Ezekiel. It is composed of those dedicated, baptized proclaimers of God’s kingdom, who have been anointed with His spirit for their work. (Isaiah 61:1-3) It is manifest that in the year 1919 the invisible heavenly organization of Jehovah, like the celestial chariot seen in Ezekiel’s vision, rolled up and stopped, not before Christendom’s advocates of the League of Nations, but before the anointed proclaimers of the heavenly kingdom of God in the hands of Jesus Christ.From atop this celestial chariotlike organization Jehovah commissioned this dedicated, baptized, anointed class of servants to speak to all the nations in His name. Thus, like Ezekiel, they became Jehovah’s witnesses. It was most fitting that, after twelve years of worldwide activity as such, they embraced the distinguishing name Jehovah’s witnesses, in the summer of 1931, and that in connection with the publishing of the book Vindication.

  They are, according to themselves, "the modern day Ezekiel". Was Ezekiel, according to JWs and other Christians, ever wrong as a prophet? Famous for spreading false teachings over many years?

  Please don't see this as an attack on you; I may "sound" mad at you above, but I'm just annoyed that they've been able to con so many with such drivel for so long. And as if that's not enough, people thereafter go to other con men and are fooled by likewise inane drivel. Gah.