Jaguar, the reason that evolutionists are against intelligent design is that ID proponents disingenuously cloud the issue. The REAL issue that is up for debate is abiogenesis, not whether god magically *POOF*ed creatures into existence with fully formed specialized organs. Even supporters of ID quoted in the Watchtower agree that there is no arguing common descent (ie: evolution). Of course, the Watchtower and other creationist publications selectively snip those bits out.
So to lay it out real clear:
- common descent, popularly known as the theory of evolution, is as scientifically sound a theory as the theory of gravity. No real scientist doubts this.
- the exact mechanism of evolution is still a subject of research, but we know without a doubt that it happens.
- abiogenesis, or the origin of life, is hotly debated.
The problem for ID proponents, especially those who consider themselves scientists, is that they can't have their cake and eat it too. Either way, if a lightning bolt in a pool of muck or the hand of God first created life, evolution has been at work ever since. Some are satisfied with this, seeing evolution as a mechanism put into place by god, but it throws a massive wrench into a literal interpretation of the Bible because it means that Adam was not created 6000 years ago as the first man, there was no original sin, no fall from grace, no global flood, and no point in Jesus' sacrifice.
I don't believe in a literal reading of the bible and I DEFINITELY don't believe in the biblical God, but I still appreciate the values it contains. Jesus' sermons, the writings of Paul on love, the poetry of King Solomon and the lamentations of Job - all of this comprises a monumental work of literature.
marmot
JoinedPosts by marmot
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CREATIONIST TEACHERS
by badboy in1 in 8 high school teachers in usa teach creationism and id as valid science.. 16% of teachers beliece humans were created less than 10,000 years ago.
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marmot
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Noah's ark - Can't believe I once actually thought it was true
by sam_sane_now inwhen i was a jw i didn't even question that the noah's ark story might not be true.
i didn't realise that it wasn't achievable for a handful of people to gather literally millions of animals - two of each kind - and fit them into a boat where they would all survive for many days.
i didn't think about the fact that if the highest mountain was covered with water then how could plant life like trees and flowers come to exist again, especially so soon after, with the raven grabbing an olive leaf was it?
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marmot
Woodmorappe plays fast and loose with facts. A lot of his so-called scientific explanations fall apart under closer examination.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html -
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Hello everyone! New here. Born into it....ugh.
by Lady Zombie inwhere to start?.
i thought about typing out a nutshelled life history but changed my mind.
suffice it to say, i was born into "the truth," attempted suicide at 14, "lost my faith" at this time, beat into submission into carrying on as usual, endured a horrible marriage and equally horrible divorce, and am more or less still in it (appearances only!
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marmot
The fact that your dad allowed you to go to college is interesting.
My grandfather absolutely forbade my uncle from going to college and pushed the issue so far that my uncle disassociated and was shunned to the fullest extent possible. My grandparents have only met his children once, at the funeral for my great-grandmother, and they refused to go to his wedding.
All this because of higher education. -
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Hello everyone! New here. Born into it....ugh.
by Lady Zombie inwhere to start?.
i thought about typing out a nutshelled life history but changed my mind.
suffice it to say, i was born into "the truth," attempted suicide at 14, "lost my faith" at this time, beat into submission into carrying on as usual, endured a horrible marriage and equally horrible divorce, and am more or less still in it (appearances only!
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marmot
Hi there and welcome. Do you still go to the same congregation as your parents?
If so, just switch congregations and do a fade. Take some night courses that "accidentally" interfere with meetings and bam, you're out!
You might get the odd shepherding call but if you purposefully make yourself appear a bit anti-social and depressed at the new congregation and don't make much of an impression on the new elders you'll drop off the radar real fast.
Kudos on the open mind, BTW. Evolution rocks!
(Wow, re-reading my post and putting myself into a JW mindset, I come across as Satan incarnate. All that's left is for me to coerce you into using drugs and having illicit sex on top of a ouija board while listening to rap.) -
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**OUCH!!!**
by Princess Daisy Boo inso i was cooking supper a few hours ago and i broke up a dried birds eye chili with my fingers into my pasta sauce.
now supper is finished and i am relaxing and i get an itchy eye - i rub my eye... &*%$ ... it is 45 minutes later and my eye is still sore!.
what stupid self inflicted injuries have you suffered and what can you recomend for a burning eye?.
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marmot
Kinda off-topic, but the google ad displaying at the bottom of the page in my browser for this topic is for Herpes medication.
What the hell? -
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One Reason Why I Worship the God of the Bible
by snowbird inwhile this may be construed as a rebuttal to nvr's thread re: why i post about atheism, that is not my intent.. it is my intent, however, to show how i developed a belief in and love for the god of the bible.. my paternal grandfather, who died before i was born, was a baptist preacher, so you could say i cut my teeth on the bible.
i loved having it read to me, and once i learned how, reading it for myself.
i'm convinced that spirituality runs deep in my blood.. i've always had such a strong sense of right and wrong that injustices make me literally sick.
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marmot
If the bible was supposed to be God's ultimate message to humanity, why was it only available to a proportionally tiny slice of that population until relatively recently?
Also, what was god up to in the period before he started taking an interest in middle eastern sheep herders?
Did he take special note of any righteous Native Americans? Did he alternately bless or curse various populations in Asia when they went to war? What about Africa, did God not give a **** about black people until the Ethiopian eunuch?
This racial favoritism and micromanagement of human affairs attributed to the biblical god is just silly. Believing in the god of the bible is no different from believing the religious myths of any other cultural group. They're all far-fetched and carry the potential to be harmful if taken literally.
I *do* agree, however, that the bible does have some very useful lessons on life but so do many other pieces of historic literature or ancient oral traditions as well as modern writings. We should open our minds to the shards of wisdom scattered all across humanity's cultural landscape and leave the negative aspects by the wayside. -
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My Cousin Tells His Mom That Its Better That His Dad Dies Now B4 Armageddon
by minimus inmy uncle who is not a jw looks pretty bad and he's in his mid 80s and in the hospital.
my jw aunt is praying that he'll recover and see the "end" before he passes away.
she's very broken up by his recent illness, recognizing that it might be the end for him.
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marmot
I never could wrap my head around this belief.
If "the wages sin pays is death" then after we die all our so-called sins are wiped out. It makes the struggle of life completely moot, and just magnifies the sick logic behind god allowing suffering to go on for thousands of years just to prove a point. -
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The wacky role of GEMATRIA in the Bible (numbers are letters!)
by Terry inwhat if there were no such things as arabic numerals (0123456789)?.
what if you only had your alphabet?.
you could use letters as numerical values.
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marmot
Quiet, damn you!
You'll wake up OBVES. -
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I am the Faithful and Discreet Slave
by jwblog inwhen i first attended the congregation of jehovahs witnesses i never even thought about whom or what was the faithful and discreet slave.
i do not believe that this information is ever taught to the public directly.
i think you have to be baptised or start attending the same meetings as those that are baptised.. anyway what made all of you adapt the teaching of the faithful and discreet slave (class or whatever)?
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marmot
Wait, what? This guy thinks god intervened to stop WWI and WWII? I suppose god caused the downfall of the Soviet Union and helped you find that parking spot last month when you were really pressed for time and you prayed to him about it too, right?
And since when has fighting in the middle east stopped?
I don't fully buy into the Dawkinsian debate about the (im)probability of a creator, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the concept of an interventionist god micromanaging human affairs. -
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marmot
Here's another great quote:
" During a November 30, 2000 meeting with Ric Osuna, author of The Night the DeFeos Died, Butch DeFeo confessed that, along with his sister Dawn DeFeo, he and one of his friends actually committed the murders out of desperation. This fact was confirmed by a letter written by Butch DeFeo. In his own handwriting, Butch wrote, "...it was cold-blooded murder. Period. No ghosts. No demons. Just three people in which I was one."
During the 2000 interview, the details of the hours leading up to the six killings emerged. The DeFeo household had been in a frenzied state during the evening of November 12, 1974. Butch's father, according to Butch, routinely abused his family. After that evening's tirade had settled down, Butch, his 18-year-old sister Dawn, and two of Butch's friends proceeded to get "high" in the basement.
Incensed that her father was preventing her from joining her boyfriend in Florida and worn out from the years of physical abuse, Dawn DeFeo approached her older brother about killing their parents. Butch initially refused. After a culmination of drugs, alcohol, and desperation over the next few hours, Butch finally gave into Dawn's ghoulish request. Employing his two friends, Butch and Dawn left the safety of the family's basement and headed for their parents' bedroom on the second floor. It was around 1:00 a.m. on November 13, 1974. While one friend waited as a lookout, the other, with his Colt Python, followed Butch, who had armed himself with a .35-Marlin rifle.
A votive candle burning on the father's dresser, the second-floor bathroom light, and a military-style flashlight that was later recovered by the police on the brown recliner in the hallway outside of the master bedroom was their only light source (See Crime-Scene Gallery).
The parents were attacked while they lay in bed. Mr. DeFeo, however, was able to struggle to his feet to attempt a counterattack on his assassins. A second bullet struck him dead before he was able to reach his target. Louise DeFeo lay in bed, moaning for help, as she slowly bled to death. A second bullet would silence the woman for good.
Although the original plan called for the younger children to be taken to the grandparents' house in Brooklyn, Dawn, according to Butch, killed them to eliminate the children as witnesses and potential threats. Butch claimed he was not in the house at the time of the children's murders, but giving pursuit to one his friends, who had fled the scene, in order to lure him back to assist with the cleanup. Even while feigning insanity at trial, Butch DeFeo never admitted shooting the children.
One can only imagine the horror on Marc's and John's faces when their big sister entered their room with a rifle. Dawn callously ordered the boys face down. A clue that the DeFeos were awake at the time of the murders rested in the final position of Marc DeFeo's body. Because Marc had suffered a debilitating injury from football, he was forced to sleep on his back. Yet, he was shot face down in bed. The prosecutor confirmed this fact at the DeFeo trial.
The next room Dawn entered was Allison's. Standing at the doorway, Dawn raised the rifle, taking aim as Allison slightly raised her head before looking into the muzzle flash. Death was instantaneous, as the bullet impacted Allison's left cheek and exited her right ear. Allison's wounds were meant to disfigure the beautiful girl.
Butch, upon his return and enraged at the senseless murder, confronted Dawn DeFeo in her third-floor bedroom. After briefly wrestling for the gun, Butch got the upper hand and slammed Dawn against the bed knocking her out. As she lie unconscious on her bed, Butch placed the back of the rifle to Dawn's head and fired. The murderous spree had finally ended, but the cleanup had just begun."