Posts by senoj53

40

"In all the congregations let the women keep silent."

by senoj53 in

at 1 corinthians 14:33-35 paul writes;.

"in all the congregations let the women keep silent, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the law says.".

if in fulfilment of joel's prophecy god's spirit was poured out on both men and women at pentecost 33 ce giving them the ability to prophesy, why did paul say that women should keep silent?.

senoj53

Joseph,

Thanks for the link to your website...Looks really interesting... I think I've got plenty to keep me busy there.

Steve

40

"In all the congregations let the women keep silent."

by senoj53 in

at 1 corinthians 14:33-35 paul writes;.

"in all the congregations let the women keep silent, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the law says.".

if in fulfilment of joel's prophecy god's spirit was poured out on both men and women at pentecost 33 ce giving them the ability to prophesy, why did paul say that women should keep silent?.

senoj53

Hi Joseph,

Could you please explain why you feel that Matthias was chosen presumptuously?

My understanding after reading Acts 1:21-26 is that Peter and the other Apostles thought fit to replace Judas and after narrowing the candidates down to just two, Joseph Barsabbas and Matthias, they prayed to God for guidance in their decision making and cast lots to see which brother God would choose. This was a previously used method of selection (See 1 Chron 26:13-16) therefore we have no reason to doubt that God himself chose Matthias and in that case he couldn't have been chosen presumtuously.

Steve.

40

"In all the congregations let the women keep silent."

by senoj53 in

at 1 corinthians 14:33-35 paul writes;.

"in all the congregations let the women keep silent, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the law says.".

if in fulfilment of joel's prophecy god's spirit was poured out on both men and women at pentecost 33 ce giving them the ability to prophesy, why did paul say that women should keep silent?.

senoj53

At 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 Paul writes;

"In all the congregations let the women keep silent, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says."

If in fulfilment of Joel's prophecy God's spirit was poured out on both men and women at Pentecost 33 CE giving them the ability to prophesy, why did Paul say that women should keep silent?

Steve (Senoj53)

23

Does the Bible contradict itself?

by senoj53 in

in answere to my previous question: do you still love the bible?

leolaia said; .

and there's nothing wrong with it being an anthology of different works expressing different points of view.

senoj53

Hi J C,

Are you saying that Satan acts as Jehovah's servant on these occasions?

I take your point about different interpretations of specific words, but we're still left with the dilema as whether Jehovah is just in taking the life of David's son, because of the sin committed by his father, when his own law states the opposite?

If sons should not be put to death on account of their fathers wrongdoing, then why do JW's preach that through one man Adam sin entered into the world and death through sin?

Steve

23

Does the Bible contradict itself?

by senoj53 in

in answere to my previous question: do you still love the bible?

leolaia said; .

and there's nothing wrong with it being an anthology of different works expressing different points of view.

senoj53

In answere to my previous question: Do you still love the Bible? Leolaia said;

And there's nothing wrong with it being an anthology of different works expressing different points of view. "Contradiction" is too judgmental a word and is borne out of a misplaced concept of unity of scripture. I feel that the BIble's diversity should be embraced and celebrated. It makes it a certainly richer book.

I agree with this, but if a collection of different works expressing different points of view is held by some to be the word of God and infalible, we should surely expect consistancy between its authors. Maybe contradiction is too judgmental, but whatever you call it, there are some difficult parts of the Bible to explain. One such example is the idea found at Deuteronomy 32:4 that suggests God is righteous, upright and perfect in his activity.

In the Mosiac Law it was stated;

"Fathers should not be put to death on account of their children and children should not be put to death on account of fathers. Each should be accountable for his own sin." (2 Chron 25:4)

Why then does Paul say at Romans;

"Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, thus death spread to all men because all had sinned." (Rom 5:12)

If children should not be put to death on account of their fathers, why did the whole of mankind have to die because of the sin of our original father Adam?

Also in an earlier posting, The dreamer dreaming raised the following issue;

YHWH murdering a baby because he loved David too much to make him accountable for his own crime. " Sam 12

When King David sinned by having Uriah the Hittite killed so that he could commit adultery with Bathshebah his wife, the account in 2 Samuel 12:9-18 tells us that the illegitimate son was killed as a consequence of David's sin with Bathshebah. This though was a contradiction of Jehovah's own law above, about children not dying on account of their fathers and we are left with a dilema. Either Jehovah is inconsistent and is prepared to bend his own law to suite his own ends, or he is unfair and in this instance made one law for the rich and powerful and another for the ordinary Jew. The other option is to say it didn't really happen this way but was how the Bible writers saw the events of the day and they naturally put the childs death down to David's sin. Again though, this shows the Bible to be unreliable, unless you see it as it is, a colloection of historic manuscripts written by ordinary imperfect men.

Yet another inconsistency is found at 2 Samuel 24, where David's taking a census of the people caused Jehovah's anger to burn against Israel with the result that 70,000 Israelites were killed. If that wasn't bad enough verse one suggests that Jehovah was already angry with his people and incited David to take the census so that he'd have an excuse to punish them. The problem is exagerated, as I can't find anything in the Law to suggest that it was a sin for David to take a census. In fact the opposite is true and sometime latter we find David again taking a census of the Levites so he'd know how many were available to serve in the temple his son Solomon was to build. There is no record that 70,000 Israelites perished on this occasion though.

According to Exodus 30:11 & 12 Jehovah said to Moses;

Whenever you take a census of the sons of Israel, they must each give a ransom for their soul to Jehovah that there may come to be no plague upon them when taking the census.

Was it that the census was carried out wrongly then, and a ransom was not paid, and it was this that lead to the deaths of 70,000 Israelites. There is no evidence of this in Scripture and if this was a punishment for wrongdoing, what lesson can be learned from it if we are not given the facts. This still wouldn't explain the opening words of 2 Samuel 24 when we are told;

"And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel when he incited David against them saying; go, take a census of Isreal and Judah."

There is a corresponding verse found at 1 chronicles 21:1, which reads;

"And Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel to incite David to number Israel."

But we are still left with a contradiction and one verse telling us that Jehovah incited David to take the census and the other telling us it was Satan. Whichever verse we decide is right, we still have to disregard one of the above texts and this doesn't actually inspire much confidence in the Bible as a whole does it?

Even more alarming are the instances in the Greek Scriptures were Paul contradicts the teaching of Jesus and the decision of the Elders in the Jerusalem Congregation, but maybe we'll leave that for another time...

Yours in search of truth

Steve (Senoj53)

43

Do you still love the Bible?

by senoj53 in

as a jw i was brought up to believe the bible was the word of god, didn't contradict itself and could answer all our questions.

i loved the bible and took the words of proverbs 2 literally, where it says if you call out for undestanding and search for it you will find the very knowledge of god.

i studied the bible as jw's recomend, but found that it left me with more questions than answers and this eventually led me out of the "truth," as i discovered many contradictions in both the hebrew and the greek scriptures and instances where the apostle paul even contradicts jesus words.. in the most important event of bible history, (the death of jesus) the gospel writers can't even agree on the sequence of events and who he appeared to first after his resurrection.

senoj53

First of all may I thank everyone who replied to my original posting and say a big thank you to the creators of this site for giving me a voice.

Well J C, you've certianly given me food for thought. I have read through all of what you said and think I've got the gist of it, but I never did doubt the Bible's historical acuracy and I think you've only got to look at the Genesis creation account to see how remarkable it is. You seem to suggest that Creation took thousands of years though, rather than millions, as we now know was the case, and I can't find anything in the account to suggest that view is correct, as each creative day seems to be an unspecified ammount of time to me.

On the 1st creative day God said "Let light come to be," but this creative period didn't end on that first "day" but extended through the 2nd, 3rd and ended on the 4th "day" when the luminaries became visible for the first time from the standpoint of someone viewing them from earth. This is in line with modern thinking as it couldn't have been until after the creation of vegitation that the atmosphere cleared enough to make the stars visible from earth.

My understanding of the words; "And there came to be an evening and there came to be morning," is that this is poetic language in Hebrew, describing the gradual completeion of the task in hand from its hazy start to its glorious, brilliant and perfect completetion. It doesn't suggest a literal day of either 24hrs, or 1000 years as the WTS used to say and when you look at the scripture that led to this understanding it says that a thousand years is as but a day to Jehovah. It doesn't say 1000 years is a day in Jehovah's timescale.

I was also interested in what you said about feeling as if the Bible is talking directly to you and certain verses lighting up and almost jumping from the page at you, as I have experienced much the same thing during my research. Suddenly something clicks and you find verse after verse seems to back up your line of reasoning. Rather than feeling this is due to some special blessing though, or being annointed, I tend to think its a result of my hard work and diligent study and when other witnesses ask why I think I know better than the FDS, I usually use Isaac Newton's words; "If I can see further than others, its because I have stood on the shoulders of giants."

I certainly don't think I'm special in any way, but in the words of Proverbs two, I think that if you call out for undestanding and search for it as you would for hidden treasure you will find the very knowledge of God, whatever that might be. The only thing is, I don't think my knowledge is absolute truth and am more than willing to learn by the many mistakes I make. I also think that its only by engaging in discussions like this that we are able to grow.

With regard to the contradictions I have found in the Bible I'd be more than happy to share them with you and look forward to your reply as I intend to post just a couple of them later, but for now, thanks again for taking the trouble to reply so deeply.

Yours in the search for truth

Steve (Senoj53)

43

Do you still love the Bible?

by senoj53 in

as a jw i was brought up to believe the bible was the word of god, didn't contradict itself and could answer all our questions.

i loved the bible and took the words of proverbs 2 literally, where it says if you call out for undestanding and search for it you will find the very knowledge of god.

i studied the bible as jw's recomend, but found that it left me with more questions than answers and this eventually led me out of the "truth," as i discovered many contradictions in both the hebrew and the greek scriptures and instances where the apostle paul even contradicts jesus words.. in the most important event of bible history, (the death of jesus) the gospel writers can't even agree on the sequence of events and who he appeared to first after his resurrection.

senoj53

As a JW I was brought up to believe the Bible was the Word of God, didn't contradict itself and could answer all our questions. I loved the Bible and took the words of Proverbs 2 literally, where it says if you call out for undestanding and search for it you will find the very knowledge of God.

I studied the Bible as JW's recomend, but found that it left me with more questions than answers and this eventually led me out of the "Truth," as I discovered many contradictions in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures and instances where the Apostle Paul even contradicts Jesus words.

In the most important event of Bible history, (the death of Jesus) the gospel writers can't even agree on the sequence of events and who he appeared to first after his resurrection. There are many other instances that I've uncovered to show that the Bible clearly isn't infalable, or the Word of God, but this has made me realize just how wonderful this collection of writings actually is and I still have a passion and deep love for it, because I now see it for what it actually is... A collection of ancient writings, written by ordinary, imperfect men.

It's all there, Jesus' warning about false prophets and how they crept into the early congregation to pollute his words with what we now call Christianity, and the fact that "Christians" follow the teachings of the self appointed Apostle Paul, rather than those of Jesus the Jew.

I'd be the first to admit that I'm not the brightest of people, so I can't understand why I can see it while my family, who are still JW's can't. If I'm wrong, then why doesn't someone challenge what I believe and why aren't the Elders willing to sit down and discuss it with me, rather than just writing me off as an Apostate?

I suppose the purpose of this posting, is to find out what others think and if they have had similar experiences. I'd love to discuss what I believe with others and be proven wrong, if that is the case, but I don't know where to go, as I feel as if I don't fit in. I feel alienated by family, previous friends and so-called brothers, but still feel as if I'm no part of the world, so any advice would be appreciated.

36

Is there one true religion?

by angeleyes71 in

hello all.

my wonderful, never- a -witness -husband, would like to know, who thinks there is one true religion, and why?

senoj53

As an ex JW I have to answer no, as I now believe all religion is dangerous, especially when you come to believe that you have the "Truth," and everyone else has got it wrong.

Once you are in that mindset you are open to suggestion and are capable of committing apauling acts in God's name, such as flying aircraft into the Twin Towers and killing thousands of innocent people, while believing you are doing God's will.

If you leave God and the Devil out of the equation though, you then become personally responsible for your own actions and personal accountability can only be a good thing.

Saying that, I do believe the truth is out there and also believe that by studying the Bible rather than someone else's ideas (such as are found in JW publications) you can soon see that Cristianity is based on a lie and the teachings of the self appointed Apostle Paul rather than the teachings of Jesus.

The truth is, there is no such thing as religious truth...