Posts by oldseeker

44

Circuit Overseers

by Eiben Scrood in

jw
friends

some circuit overseers leave lasting impressions either for good or bad.

others i barely remember.

three that had the most impact on me were rodricks (that's how it's pronounced, not sure of the spelling), casino and shepherd.

I knew Dentler in his pre-CO days as a special pioneer. His first wife Loretta died of breast cancer. I think he remarried not too long ago. Condillis was interesting. Had him as a CO then a DO. His philosophy was (expressed to us in an elders meeting) if any of the friends have problems in their life just tell them to pioneer and all their problems will go away. He told a circuit assembly audience in Crownsville AH that "the hedge is down" and we are all fair game for Satan. Lot's of tears and fear after that one (it didn't help when I was telling everyone that we really never had a hedge around us in the first place).

Jones was a character. He married a thirty-something sister in his 80's which prompted his immediate release as a DO. He gave a hall dedication talk after that wearing a tuxedo and a pair of white tennis shoes.

Oldseeker

32

Two mounting proofs for Armageddon in 2034

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

as mentioned by narkissos a couple months ago, doubting bro yesterday, and no doubt others.

is this where they are headed?

i say "evidently" it is.

oldseeker

I asked this question (and I received no answer). The wording in the following quotations from the WT is carefully presented so as to obfuscate the real meaning. This way they can simply say that we "read to much" into the explanation given. I tried to use reasoning but it didn't work:

w08 02/15 pg. 22 par. 4

An Extended Period of Time

4 The fact that the word pa-rou-si'a refers to an extended period of time harmonizes with what Jesus said with regard to his presence. (Read Matthew 24:37-39.) Notice that Jesus did not liken his presence to the relatively short period of time during which the Flood occurred in Noah's day. Rather, he compared his presence to the much longer period of time that led up to the Flood. Included therein were Noah's building of the ark and his preaching work, right up until the time that the Flood finally arrived. Those events occurred over many decades. In a similar way, Christ's presence includes the events leading up to and including the great tribulation. -2 Thess. 1:6-9.

w08 01/01 pg. 8 Footnote:

Jesus’ statement helps to correct the wrong idea conveyed in the way some Bible versions mistranslate the word “presence.” Some translations render it “coming,” “advent,” or “return,” all of which imply a momentary event in time. Notice, though, that Jesus did not liken his presence to the Flood of Noah’s day, an event in time, but to “the days of Noah,” a climatic period of time. Like that ancient era, Christ’s presence would be a period of time during which people would be too caught up in the day-to-day affairs of life to take a note of a warning being given.

Can we be intellectually honest in using this account in Matthew 24: 37-39 to say that it is referring to a period of time rather than an event? The statement in the footnote appears to ignore the parallel account in Luke 17:26-28: “Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building.”

It appears to me that the context of these accounts is clearly focusing on an event (“it occurred” – Luke 17:26) that overtook unwary people. Either that or there is a contradiction between Matthew and Luke on this matter. Rather, it appears that they are both describing the condition, attitude, and behavior of the people prior to an event, with the event being the subject of the sentences. The contextual wording has it emphasis not in the length (period) of time people where involved in this behavior, but in that this behavior caused them to miss the sudden event.

The account in Luke is admittedly much clearer in putting emphasis on the event, “it occurred” rather than the “days of”. The Greek word used in Luke for ‘occurred’ (ginomai) speaks to a happening, and more specifically the context reveals a “happening” within the “days of Noah, the event rather than the days being the primary discussion as is seen in Thayer's Lexicon Definitions:

To become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
To become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
Of events
To arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
Of men appearing in public
To be made, finished
Of miracles, to be performed, wrought
To become, be made

Also Strong’s Dictionary Definitions:

A prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Should we use these accounts in Matthew and Luke to indicate an “extended period of time” of the presence of Jesus Christ? My concern is that placing the emphasis of the discussion on the “days of Noah” might give some the false impression that the Bibles reference to the “days of Noah” would be similar, if not identical, to the “History of Noah” (Genesis 6:9) Because, immediately prior to the reference to the “History of Noah” we have the statement in Genesis 6:3: ‘After that Jehovah said: “My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.”’ So, can it now be reasoned that there is at least some indication that the “presence” of Jesus Christ can now be numbered at 120 years based upon the record of the history of Noah (or the “days of Noah”) in Genesis, making the end now to appear to come in 2034?

Certainly, I am not going to assign any meaning to this at all except to take the clear warning not to be like the people in the days of Noah and Lot and miss the signs leading up to the event that faced them. But, I am fearfully confident that many others will do so and this will be a question many will ask. I am sure that, based on the Watchtower articles I have referred to above, you have no intent of providing a possible means for the calculation of a date for Armageddon. However, there appears to be an opening in these statements for some to do just that.

As I stated earlier about the account in Luke 17:26-28 referring to the occurrence (event) of the end versus the period of time it would seem that clear thinking would prevent us from trying to attach a length of time of any sort to the presence of Jesus Christ based upon the account in Matthew citied in the article. And, since Luke included both Noah and Lot in his discussion, we would now have to calculate the time that Lot was in Sodom and figure this into our calculations, and I have been unable to find any reference to that time period anywhere.

I’m not questioning the argument for the presence being some period of time, it is simply that to use these verses (Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 12:26-28) to definitively do so creates more questions and speculation than it needs to, given all of the other proof texts and reasoning that could be used (to support the parousia being a period of time). Personally, having lived through the 1975 era as an adult, fully aware of the speculation and expectations associated with that time, along with the effect that it had on brothers around me, I am not excited to see the prospect of a similar event occurring as a result of the above statements.

oldseeker

25

Are Jehovah's Witnesses a Christian denomination? The Feb. Watchtower seems to say so

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

i have not noticed the witnesses referring to themselves in the literature as a christian denomination before: is this a new development?

the february 1st wt says on page 22:.

"a high-school textbook, world religions in denmark, published in 2007, described jehovah's witnesses as a christian minority who follow the bible closely.

oldseeker

slimfatboy:

I looked. They don't refer to themselves as a denomination, at least back to 1950 as far as the library goes. It's always the "Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses" which has become their official title outside of the publishing company title of WTB&TS.

*** w081/15p.13par.3“RightlyDisposed”OnesAreResponding***

3 In modern times too, the Christian congregation has been blessed with remarkable growth. Are you not encouraged when you read the annual report of Jehovah’s Witnesses and see the results that are being obtained worldwide? Does it not warm your heart to know that Kingdom proclaimers conducted more than six million Bible studies during the 2007 service year? Moreover, the attendance at the Memorial of Jesus Christ’s death last year indicates that some ten million people who are not Witnesses of Jehovah were sufficiently interested in the good news to attend this important commemoration. This indicates that there is still much work to do.

24

Watchtower.org on "Manipulation of Information" - Hypocrisy Alert

by skeeter1 in

jw
friends

talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

the watchtower has sunk to a new depth of hypocrisy.

check out this bullshit.

oldseeker

I wrote some stuff out for my own sanity and I included my personal take on the staement in the 2009 Awake:

These views are not well received by the non-Jehovah’s Witness population. Perhaps the organization would think about these statements and seek to present a ‘softer’, more acceptable position to the public. Could they be hinting at that in this Awake! magazine article of July 2009, page 29?:

“… loyalty to God may result in your making a decision that is unpopular with some family members.”

“Although the Bible makes a clear distinction between true and false teachings, God allows each person the freedom to choose how he or she will respond. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.”

On its face you could read this statement and believe that it matches the ideal of Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (quoted at the beginning of this section). But, it only appears that way. The scripture citied, but not quoted, in the excerpt reveals the choice the Israelites had. When you read it you will realize that it was only the choice of life or death! The real truth of this article is concealed under a veneer of allowing freedom to make a choice when, in truth, no choice of freedom is allowed. There is a difference! Here is the scripture:

(Deuteronomy30:19-20) I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against YOU today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell upon the ground that Jehovah swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give to them.”

Saying that “the Bible makes a clear distinction between true and false teachings, God allows each person the freedom to choose how he or she will respond” seems innocuous enough, but in context it is a choice of life and death. The truth is, the position of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not softened or changed with the printing of this 2009 Awake! article. To paraphrase the statement and removing the veneer of respectability implied by the statement it becomes: “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable, he is free to choose between the truths we teach or the falsehoods every other religion teaches. He will be held accountable for the choice he makes and will receive either life or death, it is his choice. It is up to himalone to choose between his beliefs and his family.” There is no choice of freedom in the choice presented here. There is but one way to “freedom” which is no choice, unless you believe death to be a choice, which is ultimately inevitable for everyone, unless you are stoned to death (some choice!) instead of being allowed to die of natural causes, enjoying freedom along the way you have chosen.

40

The Gradual Change From Worshiping Jehovah To The Worship Of the Governing Body

by frankiespeakin in

i first began my misadventures with jehovah's witnesses in 1972 as a youth(18 years old) and was baptised in that same year.

i was young inexperienced and they caught me at a low point when i was weak and looking for god to solve problems.

being raised as a catholic and going to all the religious indoctrination up to the point of confirmation, i guess you could say i was indoctrinated from birth to believe a certain way which left me vulnerable to the jw propaganda.. fast foreword to the time of my departure in 2001 february.. for a couple of years (late 90s) before i left i started noticing out right lies in the wt publications about their history and the luster that these magazines used to have started to fade rapidly also around that time i really began to notice the gobs and gobs of praise they were bestowing on the organization and the representative members of the so called faithful & discrete slave(gb).

oldseeker

What-A-Coincidence:

I was working on an article for my own "therapy" and I had included a section about how to create your own religion, there's much more but this section should remind you of something:

You can create your own religion. I’m giving you the following pointers if you want to try. I know they work because I have lived them. Here are a few of the key ingredients you will need:

1. A unique interpretation of the Bible. If you have one and you are passionate about it, you can get others to follow you in your esoteric beliefs. If you can’t be original then borrow ideas from others. Jehovah’s Witnesses “borrowed” a number of their beliefs from the Second Adventists, so it’s ok to do this.

2. Convince others that you have a direct connection to God. This is easier than it may seem. I’m convinced that Yogi Berra had a following based on his ability of prediction of the future. With phrases like: “Prediction is very hard, especially about the future” (this makes as much sense as any prediction of the date for the time of the end that I’ve ever heard), you could create your own subculture that believes that they must go through you (the one true channel) to get to God. It will help your cause if you use the word “faithful” in your official title. Add another word to faithful such as “faithful and discreet” and nobody will question your authority.

3. Create ‘secret’ rituals, a special language, mantras, etc. and you can have your followers believe they are part of a special group. Insist that they use this special language at all times. Jehovah’s Witnesses call this the “pure language” (Zephaniah 3:9) or sometimes as “pure language of truth”. You can use it too, it’s from the Bible, and it’s not copyrighted.

4. Tell your group that it alone is selected by God for salvation and set apart from the rest of the “unbelievers” or “infidels” on the outside (world). You get major bonus points if you can convince them that everything outside of your group is controlled by Satan. Your followers can then be easily isolated from the rest of society and convinced that they are accepted and loved only by “the group” (your group).

5. Most important of all, you must have a date for the “end of the world”. This is not the end for your followers; they are special and will be saved. You’ll need a good story here; perhaps the manner of “saving” them will be by a space ship or some kind of an ark. You could call it the “ark of salvation”, I don’t think this is copyrighted so I’ll give this to you for free. This will keep your followers excited and in the fold, waiting eagerly to see what’s going to happen next.

One caution; please don’t kill everyone on the date you have selected for the end of the world by telling them they must drink poison kool-aid to get to God. This will work because it has worked, but don’t do it! When the date comes and goes all you really need is a good story. After all, you want your followers to continue supporting you and the life-style you now have. You could say that the end came “invisibly” and because of a lack of faith, your flock was unable to see it with “eyes of understanding”. In other words, blame your flock for the failure of your prediction (none of this is copyrighted so feel free to use it). I’m giving you a bonus quote here that you can use to deflect the charges that you are now a “false prophet” for missing the date for the end: “I didn’t really say everything I said.” (this is another Yogi Berra quote).

For reference purposes only, I’m presenting to you a masterful, clever, piece of work that the “Faithful and Discreet Slave” of Jehovah’s Witnesses came up with after their failed prediction of the end in 1975. Notice how they blame the followers and not themselves for the failure (don’t use this in your religion, this is copyrighted):

Watchtower 767/15p.440par.11ASolidBasisforConfidence

11 It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bible’s warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date.

15 But it is not advisable for us to set our sights on a certain date, neglecting everyday things we would ordinarily care for as Christians, such as things that we and our families really need. We may be forgetting that, when the “day” comes, it will not change the principle that Christians must at all times take care of all their responsibilities. If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.

Do you see how this works? The Watchtower, in numerous publications and for years previous to 1975, presented the year 1975 as the “appropriate” time for the end to come. The followers didn’t create the date, didn’t write about, didn’t give presentations to large audiences about it, the leaders did. Personally, I think Yogi Berra (“I didn’t really say everything I said”) wrote the magazine.

Besides Jehovah’s Witnesses, you may know of people that have done much of the above in creating their own religions:

James Warren " Jim " Jones was the founder and leader of the Peoples Temple, which is best known for the November 18, 1978 death of more than 900 Temple members in Jonestown, Guyana along with the deaths of nine other people at a nearby airstrip and in Georgetown.

David Koresh , born Vernon Wayne Howell , was the leader of a Branch Davidian religious sect, believing himself to be its final prophet. A 1993 raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and the subsequent siege by the FBI ended with the burning of the Branch Davidian ranch outside of Waco, Texas in McLennan County. Koresh, 54 adults and 21 children were found dead after the fire.

Heaven's Gate was an American UFO Religion based in San Diego, California, founded and led by Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles. On March 26, 1997, police discovered the bodies of 39 members of the Heaven's Gate cult, all of whom had died by apparent suicide. The group's end coincided with the appearance of Comet Hale-Bopp in 1997.

If founding your own religion is not for you, then you need to find truth.

40

The Gradual Change From Worshiping Jehovah To The Worship Of the Governing Body

by frankiespeakin in

i first began my misadventures with jehovah's witnesses in 1972 as a youth(18 years old) and was baptised in that same year.

i was young inexperienced and they caught me at a low point when i was weak and looking for god to solve problems.

being raised as a catholic and going to all the religious indoctrination up to the point of confirmation, i guess you could say i was indoctrinated from birth to believe a certain way which left me vulnerable to the jw propaganda.. fast foreword to the time of my departure in 2001 february.. for a couple of years (late 90s) before i left i started noticing out right lies in the wt publications about their history and the luster that these magazines used to have started to fade rapidly also around that time i really began to notice the gobs and gobs of praise they were bestowing on the organization and the representative members of the so called faithful & discrete slave(gb).

oldseeker

yadda yadda 2

I've heard the organization called "mother" many times. Once at an assembly hall construction meeting, all in attendance were told to obey the instructions coming from "mother". If you search the CD ROM (use the words 'organization as mother' no quotation marks ) you will find numerous references to this.

Here's one for your amusement (you can't make this stuff up):

*** w9511/1pp.24-25“ThrownDown,butNotDestroyed”***

We must always keep the hope of life in God’s coming new world alive in our hearts. (1 Thessalonians 5:8) I have also learned not to give up in the fight against any tendency to become discouraged. I have learned to view Jehovah as my Father and his organization as my Mother. I have come to realize that if we make the effort, Jehovah can use any one of us to be an effective servant of his.

46

In your own words ... what is the truth?

by sacolton in

in one sentence, can you define what the real "truth" is?

not the watchtower version (we all know what that is)..

oldseeker

Truth is whatever is subjectively convincing at one's current level of perception.

This explains why, if you limit a persons education and reasoning abilities and critcal analysis skill, you can control the level of truth that they can even know.

Conversely, if you can raise your level of perception (by knowledge and understanding, and possibly spirituality) you change the level of truth you can know. Not that objective truth has changed (if you believe it exists at all), its all in you perception, making it all dependent truth.

Just my take on it,

Oldseeker

80

To Current and Former Elders

by Styxx in

i wanted to say a few things to current and former elders.

it was really a post by alltimejeff on 10/1/2009 that got me thinking about this and i address a few things that he says here.

but i dont want to single him out because i really think that he is typical of many, and he did in fact apologize for his actions at the end of his post.

oldseeker

"The end justifies the means". Could this be the GB's motto? I think so, however, as Jesus approached it, the "means and the end" are the same. There is a difference in the attitude.

From the book Power vs. Force by Dr. David R. Hawkins:

"Adolf Hitler assembled the greatest military machine the world has ever seen. On the simple level of force, his military was unbeatable; yet he could not defeat a tiny island across the English Channel because of the power expressed by Winston Churchill, who unified the will of his people through principles of freedom and selfless sacrifice. Churchill stood for power, Hitler for force. When the two meet, power always eventually succeeds; in the long run, if it's deeply founded in the will of the people, power is immune to force."

A distinctive characteristic of force is that it cannot tolerate dissent, which usually results in tyranny (as with Hitler). Do the rank and file feel empowered by the GB and the elders? The honest answer to this is no. They are not free to express themselves openly, there is no forum for honest debate (freedom).

The average elder is a "blue-collar" worker thrust into a position of not power, but force. How they respond to the change in the control they now have is very telling. Some become very compassionate and use their position for good. The others, sadly in the majority, are now free to use force in a way that they have never had before, their secular work doesn't give them any power, but now suddenly they have it in the congregation.

I highly recommend Hawkins book. It gives a wonderful perspective of human behavior. It's a little deep but worth it.

oldseeker

151

There's A Ghost At My Place Of Employment

by finallysomepride in

ok some of you will laugh at this, but it's true, there is a spirit that haunts the premises where i work.. it has spoken to me once when i was locking up, it was 1 single word "hello", i looked around and saw nothing, i ignored it, set the alarm locked the door & went home.

other times i have felt something brush passed me as i have entered the building early in the morning.

the experience that got to me most happened the other nite when i was called back to the store by security, as i pulled into the drive way there was a man standing at the rear of the building, in the split second of looking away he dissapeared, there's no way that he could have run off the property in that split second.. what do you think?.

oldseeker

daniel-p:

Certainly, it is all anecdotal. Not being scientists and submitting our experience to the scientific method making it provable, we are left simply with our personal experiences. In the long run, it really doesn't matter what our belief's are in ghosts or demons, that is, unless we are being personally attacked by them (or something we THINK is them). People like to think about it though. The fact that there are TV shows such as Ghost Hunters (which seems to be popular) shows that there is an interest in them. There is also a great interest in vampires, I can't even count the shows about them. Never had an experience with a vampire.

oldseeker

151

There's A Ghost At My Place Of Employment

by finallysomepride in

ok some of you will laugh at this, but it's true, there is a spirit that haunts the premises where i work.. it has spoken to me once when i was locking up, it was 1 single word "hello", i looked around and saw nothing, i ignored it, set the alarm locked the door & went home.

other times i have felt something brush passed me as i have entered the building early in the morning.

the experience that got to me most happened the other nite when i was called back to the store by security, as i pulled into the drive way there was a man standing at the rear of the building, in the split second of looking away he dissapeared, there's no way that he could have run off the property in that split second.. what do you think?.

oldseeker

Yeah. I saw the books flying across the room with no "body" throwing them. Other than that I'm pretty normal. I don't drink, wasn't into drugs and was an elder at the time. Although as you know being an elder doesn't make you free of drugs and alcohol. But, yes I remember the events that I listed here and there were others as well. Some of this I'm trying not to be too specific on. If you want to pm me I could give you more specifics.

oldseeker