Rex,
Oops, I thought you made a mistake and were talking to me.
Never mind.
Ginny
GinnyTosken
JoinedPosts by GinnyTosken
-
42
just another religion
by teejay inpatriotism is a religion just like every other religion.
either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.
just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.
-
-
-
11
Why Do Muslims Come To The U.S.?
by TR inin the town i live in, there are many male arabic students that come here for an education.
but is that really their reason for coming?
or, are they here to taste the freedom that the u.s. provides?
-
-
GinnyTosken
TR,
I worked for a program at Indiana University that was part of International Programs. The program enabled Malaysian students (mostly Muslim) to study in the U.S. and also sent professors to Malaysia to help with the shortage of professors there.
These students wanted to attend universities that had strong programs in their fields of interest. Many areas of specialized research are only available outside of Malaysia. I would imagine the same is true in the Arabic world.
While I worked for the program, about 2,000 students came over each year. Some of them went wild with credit cards and partying and had to be sent home. Most of the students were very serious about their studies and did quite well. The percentage of Malaysian wild ones appeared no different from the percentage of American students who come to IU and become party animals.
These exchange programs are designed to foster understanding and cooperation between nations. These students spend years studying English and learning about American culture and history.
I am pleased that the response in my community has not been driven by fear and prejudice. This is from the Indiana Daily Student of Tuesday, September 25. I especially like the day when Muslims and non-Muslims wore a hijab or kufi:
As Muslims in Bloomington and around the country braced for backlash following the terrorist attacks two weeks ago, what they weren't prepared for was the outpouring of community support. . . .
Some students have been attacked or verbally harassed, but more people have shown understanding, said senior Sohaib Sultan. . . .
Bilal, along with Kathryn Bryan, a continuing studies student, organized a buddy system for Muslims wanting an escort to and from classes. She said they received hundreds of e-mails from people wanting to help. Bryan said the response was so overwhelming that she couldn't respond to each one individually.
But, that's not all. Last week, Muslims and non-Muslims participated in a solidarity event by wearing the hijab or the kufi, a head covering Muslim women and men wear.
The Religious Studies Department also sponsored an event about Islam last Wednesday and more than 300 people showed up at Ballantine Hall. The turnout was so huge that the room couldn't hold everyone and 200 people were turned away, said moderator Kevin Jaques, a religious studies professor. Last weekend, churches invited Muslims to speak about their religion. More discussions are planned for later this week and month.
Ginny
-
42
just another religion
by teejay inpatriotism is a religion just like every other religion.
either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.
just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.
-
-
GinnyTosken
Tdogg,
**Why do people hate? I believe the indoctrination comes first.**
Maybe, but wouldn't that imply that if there was no religion there would be no hatred?
Indoctrination doesn't have to be religious. You can see in the quotation from the WAR youth leader that he was indoctrinated to believe that minorities were a threat to his way of life. He was taught to fear and hate them.
Religion can foster hate because many religions divide people into righteous and unrighteous, which breeds the prejudice that leads to hate. When people are taught to believe that only their way is the right way, they lose a great deal of tolerance and willingness to understand. Some religions teach people to hate what God hates, which somehow makes hate acceptable.
This article shows the mixed messages Jehovah's Witnesses receive about hate:
http://www.freeminds.org/h2o/264947.html
People interpret their religions in different ways, and many religious people are loving and tolerant.
People have a strong psychological need to create enemies, and I'm not sure this would end if there were no religions. I imagine folks would group themselves under different banners--political, ideological, national. There would still be people who fear and paint outsiders as evil. I think that there would be less hate without the strong motivation and dividing force of religion.
Ginny
-
42
just another religion
by teejay inpatriotism is a religion just like every other religion.
either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.
just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.
-
-
GinnyTosken
DannyBear,
You give up trying to reason with me????
I could have phrased that better. I give up trying to communicate with you. From your replies, I gather that you do not understand what I am trying to communicate, and this frustrates me. I gather that you are equally frustrated with me.
Your reply simply restated your already clearly defined opinions. Yet again you would not directly answer my pointed question.
I have seen many questions in your posts, many of which have little to do with the issues I have chosen to address--how analogies shape our thinking and the danger of dehumanizing an enemy. Please tell me which of your questions is the pointed one, and I will do my best to answer.
I made your own point as far as the recognizing that killing terrorists, only give them cause for claim as 'martyrs'...you must have just skim read those words.
I read that, Danny. As I see it, whether these men should be killed is a side issue from the one that began this thread. I commented only because it seems so ludicrous to try to use death as a deterrent with people who are taught not to fear death.
Teejay began this thread by noting, "Patriotism is a religion just like every other religion." It is not often that I agree with Teejay, but I do agree with him somewhat on this point. Patriotism can be a religion if one is fanatical about it. Especially in times of war, a country's cause becomes holy and the propaganda machine begins to churn. People are worked up into an emotional furor and begin seeing things in black and white, my country vs. the enemy.
In your first post to this thread, you explain that the current situation is like a sporting event. There is no point in attending the game unless you choose sides and get caught up in the pride and emotion. There is no room for moderates and "fence-sitters." One team must win.
I tried to point out the hazards of using such an analogy. I also pointed out some of the reasons people get emotional about sporting events and why team pride can be an inappropriate source of personal pride and self-esteem.
You answer, characterizing me as a person who wishes to do nothing to remedy the terrorist situation. You did not address the issue of analogies. Thinking in black or white terms, either Ginny is a patriot or a pacifist.
I explain my stance and come back to the issue of analogies. I try to show how different analogies produce different solutions.
You answer, accusing me of being indoctrinated by a socialist educational system and politically correct media propaganda. You ask, "What do we do about those who want to kill you, yes you Ginny, wherever and whenever they may have the chance?"
I tell you exactly what I did when someone wanted to kill me. I have looked down the barrel of a gun. I have faced people with knives in their hands. I believe violent people should be restrained. Killing them should be a last resort.
You reply that these terrorists are different. They went about their day-to-day lives appearing normal, so you conclude that they deliberately wished to be evil. You close by characterizing them as "scum sucking pigs."
Your "scum sucking pigs" comment bothers me a great deal, because this is the sort of language that fuels the propaganda machine of a holy cause.
It may be that one of the earliest human inventions was the image of an enemy. And shortly after that came the weapon, for killing. Typically, propaganda changes the enemy from a human being into a demon, an incarnation of evil, a stain that must be wiped from the earth. The human face, which might be loved, is changed into a loathsome thing, an animal. The Jap becomes an ape, the Nazi a blond beast, the American a capitalistic pig, the communist an atheist, the Jew a vermin.
from The Passionate Life by Sam Keen
Think also about the Society's characterizations of apostates as "ravenous wolves" and "venomous snakes."
We can simply say 'we disagree'...without all the drama.
Perhaps I have been overly dramatic about this issue. It is one that touches me deeply. I come to this board in part because I want to share what I have learned about cognitive distortions such as mind-reading and dichotomous thinking. I also am alert to the dangers of cult indoctrination. It pains me to see you persist in using the characterizations typical of propaganda. Propaganda is very close to indoctrination on the continuum of influence.
http://www.workingpsychology.com/ethics2.html
Where in any of my posts have been calling for revenge?
Where in any of my posts to this thread have I said that you are calling for revenge?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading your posts, I gather that you want those responsible for terrorism to die. If I'm reading you correctly, it does not particularly matter to you if they are brought to trial first. If the U.S. military can go in and find them and kill them, that's great.
My wish is that those responsible for terrorism will be treated as are other murderers in this country and will be captured and restrained. I hope they are brought to trial. I hope that a court determines what is a just and suitable punishment. Given the circumstances, I realize this may not be possible. If killing is done, I hope that it is used as a last resort and not as a first choice.
I don't demand that you agree with my views about the terrorist situation. I am frustrated that you appear to have missed the point about how analogies shape one's thinking and how dehumanizing an enemy is akin to propaganda, especially after reading the information I have shared.
Ginny
-
42
just another religion
by teejay inpatriotism is a religion just like every other religion.
either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.
just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.
-
-
GinnyTosken
DannyBear,
I give up trying to reason with you.
You seem to have the best of intentions, but you continue to read into my posts things that I did not say.
As I said before:
I think we must stand up to attacks. I am just aware of the danger of dehumanizing an enemy. I hope that killing is used only as a last resort.You are funny, speaking about deterrents. Is a death penalty going to be an effective deterrent against a suicide pilot?
If you want to punish these men, you seem to lack imagination. Which would be worse for them--a quick death or living to see the World Trade Center rebuilt, the U.S. and world economy return to normal, American ties strengthened with the Arab world, greater understanding and tolerance between Christians, Jews, and Muslims?
If you insist on dehumanizing your enemies, well, you and James Cagney just go get your dirty rats.
Ginny
-
22
Weird Scriptures
by deceit inhi all,would just like to say a quick thanks to all the regular posters on this board, please dont think for one minute that your hard work in unmasking the borg is going without notice.
lurkers read here and think subconsciously about all info provided and sooner or later it all dawns on them (like myself),,,, so once again thanks.. now, what my question is, do any of you guys know some real good scriptures from the bible that are really weird/gross/unethical/murderous ect ect?.
the reason being is that there are quit a few that i know that think the bible is like a nice smelling rose and seem to forget that there is also a really strange and dark side to it that really doesnt make any sense.
-
-
GinnyTosken
I've posted this before, but this seemed an appropriate setting in which to share it again.
Ginny
Feet, thighs, and hands
About a year ago, I found a dilapidated copy of The Oxford Annotated Bible at Goodwill. I have so enjoyed what I’ve learned from the notes that I decided to treat myself to the updated version, The New Oxford Annotated Bible. My Goodwill copy was last updated in 1962; this new one was updated in 1994.
Happy with my new treasure, I began thumbing through to see what is new. The note for Exodus 4:25 caught my eye. The verse reads:
But Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin, and touched Moses’ feet with it, and said, "Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"
The note reads:
Here it is assumed that the circumcision of the infant son was efficacious for Moses, who was evidently uncircumcised. Feet, a euphemism for the genitals (Isa 7.20).
“Feet” a euphemism for genitals? This seemed a bit far-fetched. I set aside my curiosity about why Jehovah would try to kill Moses and flipped over to Isaiah 7:20:
On that day the Lord will shave with a razor hired beyond the River—with the king of Assyria—the head and the hair of the feet, and it will take off the beard as well.
Again the same note—“feet” is a euphemism for genitals. While it would make more sense in this context, it still seemed a stretch. I went to the Bible browser and did a search for “feet.” Look at Judges 3:24:
After he had gone, the servants came. When they saw that the doors of the roof chamber were locked, they thought, “He must be relieving himself in the cool chamber.”
The Hebrew for “relieving himself” is literally “covering his feet.”
It makes one wonder what is really going on in Ruth 3:7:
And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of grain. Then she came softly, and uncovered his feet and lay down.
Hmmmm. Are there other Biblical euphemisms, I wondered? I began searching the net.
I discovered that “thigh” is also used euphemistically.
And Abraham said to his servant, the oldest of his house, who had charge of all that he had, “Put your hand under my thigh,”
This means “put your hand under my testicles.” Patriarchal Semites swore binding oaths by placing a hand on each other’s private parts, a habit still common among the Arabs. The “fountain of life” was considered sacred. Words like testament, testify, and testimony still attest to the oaths sworn on testicles.
Some scholars believe that Genesis 32:25 is euphemistic. The sinew that shrank on the hollow of Jacob’s thigh is his penis. He literally and figuratively "limped" away from the wrestling match.
In some contexts, even “hand” can even be a phallic euphemism. This is from a passage in the Manual of Disciples from the Dead Sea Scrolls:
One who walks before his neighbor naked when he does not have to do so shall be punished six months . . . one who brings his ‘hand’ out from beneath his robe when it is torn, so that his nakedness is seen, shall be punished thirty days. One who laughs foolishly, making his voice heard, shall be punished thirty days. One who brings out his left hand to gesticulate with it shall be punished ten days.
Perhaps we should get back to Bible fundamentals when we raise our "hands" at meetings? More sisters might attend, especially if a brother was assigned to work on gestures.
Ginny
-
14
Life in a small town
by Belmont inwe live in a small town in england where for 30 years we were stalwarts of the local congregation, and then walked away, not df'd or da'd.
there is virtually only one main street, and the reaction of the jws to us is a lesson in human behaviour.
some ostentatiously shun us, some "love bomb" us, and one elder whom we have known since he was 10 years old, actually walked away when we spoke to him.
-
-
GinnyTosken
Hello and welcome, Belmont,
One actually said "If only Bethel knew, they would put it right" which is a consoling thought if you are living under an abusive regime. Many must have thought the same about Hitler or Stalin. It's difficult to admit to yourself that everything you've been clinging on to for years is nonsense. How does one respond to them without frightening them away?
I would encourage them to write to Bethel. More than anything else, this may open their eyes to how Bethel actually works. I've read the stories of many on this board who were convinced that if they only wrote to the Society, gently pointing out errors or injustices, the brothers would be kindly and fair. The answers received fell far short of their expectations, and these writers were often treated suspiciously after writing. People looking sincerely for answers and fairness will be aghast at such treatment.
Meanwhile, when I meet Jehovah's Witnesses on the street, I try to treat them as I would any other human being. I can't control how they behave towards me, but I can control how I behave towards them. They often find it puzzling that one who has been away from "spiritual paradise" is not morose, depressed, and ashamed. I like to smile warmly and keep them wondering.
Even those who walk away from you will be forced to think a little. They will not forget your stalwart service of 30 years and cannot help but wonder what could possibly turn you from that. Of course, they may quickly attribute it to the influence of Satan, but if you and your wife are still the same moral people as you were before, this explanation will be flimsy.
I wish you the best as you rebuild your circle of friends.
Ginny
-
42
just another religion
by teejay inpatriotism is a religion just like every other religion.
either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.
just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.
-
-
GinnyTosken
DannyBear,
I was upset and impatient last night and could not reply with much civility. I am calmer this morning and would like to answer.
Reports coming back from those who lived with or near the individual terrorists responsible for the actual acts of terror, show that these people for all intent and purpose, seemed normal in every sense of the word, going about their daily lives, with no symptoms or indications of what they were really about. Evidence that this whole action was methodical, relentless, and planned in every detail. Not some off the cuff, heated, random display of violence...but cold calculated 'blood thirsty' murder. Not even a whisper of this planned 'horror' was divulged. They were resolute in their 'intent' to commit.
Outside of our house, my mother went about her daily life and showed no symptoms of what she was really about. She was warm and congenial. Some of her friends still do not believe that she terrorized us as she did. Warped thinking isn't revealed only in off-the-cuff, heated, random displays of violence.
Did you happen to read Randy Watters' post called, "Fear is a Recruiter"? He quotes from Steven Hassan:
The government and the public may think of the terrorists as radical extremists who were motivated by an intense and driving hatred of America - one cultivated by the militant Muslim leader Osama bin Laden. But there is evidence that at least some of the terrorists underwent a 'radical transformation' when they were recruited and were probably manipulated in ways that they were not aware of.
"Suicide bombers undergo a thorough and extensive indoctrination - reportedly spending hours in a coffin reading from the Koran in an open grave. They are told that they are already dead and will be hailed in heaven for their heroic deeds," Hassan says. "Like members of other destructive cults, they are programmed to think in simplistic black and white, us-versus-them terms. They not only depersonalize but also demonize their enemies."
Randy did not include this in his post, but I think Hassan's suggestion is worth considering:
"The last thing we need to do is fuel their idea that we are Satan," Hassan says. He believes that U.S. military action against Muslim civilians will only reinforce the cultist's commitment and escalate the violence. "We should be using our knowledge of psychology to undermine the control and power of the people on top of the pyramid of this and other terrorist organizations," he says.
Randy Watters' "Fear is a Recruiter" thread:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=12516&site=3#150267"Cult Mind Control Techniques May Have Fueled Terrorists"
Statement from Steve Hassan
http://www.freedomofmind.com/mindctrl_terror.htmlDestructive cults teach their members to think in simplistic black and white, us-versus-them terms. They not only depersonalize but also demonize their enemies. This is why your team analogy and "scum sucking pigs" comment touched such a nerve with me.
Tdogg,
These men have families? You mean they are not some evil spawn of Satan himself? Of course they have families. So did the Nazis. So did Ghengis Khan. So I guess we should not stand up to attacks on our our citizens so that Abu's mommy wont get sad?
No, I think we must stand up to attacks. I am just aware of the danger of dehumanizing an enemy. I hope that killing is used only a last resort.
What exactly do you propose? Sanctions? I dont think sanctions would have stopped Adolf. It didnt stop the Japanese in 1941. Sanctions just piss people off more, just like invading their homeland. And a stern talking to isnt going to stop these men.
I think the world should use the most effective means it can to stop terrorism. I personally believe that nonviolent means are most effective long-term and hope that these means are used whenever and wherever possible. If possible, I hope those responsible for terrorism are brought to trial. Not only do I think this is fair, but I also think it will help erode the mindset if the deeds and thinking of terrorists are exposed.
Religion is NOT the reson people kill, hatred is. Religion is just the excuse.
Why do people hate? I believe the indoctrination comes first. I also think that Randy Watters is right when he says fear is the recruiter. Consider this:
These groups recognize very clearly the psychology of the issues they raise. As former WAR youth leader Greg Withrow told the Commission, referring to his upbringing by his neo-Nazi father, "before I ever learned to hate, I learned to fear." They are indoctrinated to believe that minorities are a threat to their way of life, to their very existence, and that the only choice is to fight back in as violent a fashion as possible.
From What Causes Hate Violence?
http://www.cahro.org/html/hate_crimes.html#whatcauseshateTeejay,
Thank you for your kind words about my mother.
I don't think my analogy is off-base or fallacious. My mother's thinking was warped and she was a terrorist. She tried to coerce and intimidate our family with fear and violent force. In fact, she saw herself as a revolutionary. She wanted to overthrow the established order of the family, which had been under the authoritarian rule of my father for many years.
I agree that we're all a bit mad. Mental health and illness is a continuum.
Look, to virtually every nation, tribe, tongue and people in the world, these people, Arabs, are (excuse the language) the niggers of the world. No one, save themselves, care about them.
I disagree that no one cares about them. When I worked for the Office of International Programs at Indiana University, I heard many voices raised in Arab defense and saw people working to make a difference. I would imagine that there are many others who care, both across the United States and worldwide.
It is true that the U.S. and other countries have often been motivated by profit. This does not match my personal values. However, the U.S. is a democratic nation. When the people show that they value justice over profit and elect leaders who reflect their values, the government will change.
I agree that people have a right to self-determination. Should the U.S. stand by and allow other countries to battle things out on their own? Should stronger countries be allowed to oppress weaker countries? The U.S. has tried isolationism, and that didn't seem to work. Perhaps there is a middle ground somewhere between isolationism and world policeman.
Perhaps it's like the cycle of human growth itself. We begin in this world completely dependent and grow towards independence. Slowly we realize that all of us are interdependent.
As I've said before, some of bin Laden's complaints are valid. He is also sick and needs help. He thinks in black and white, us-versus-them terms. He demonizes his enemies. He has a right to believe as he wishes. He does not have the right to coerce and intimidate others.
Ginny
FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS
No man is an Iland,
intire of it selfe,
everyman is a peece of the Continent,
a part of the maine;
if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea,
Europe is the lesse,
as well as if a Promontorie were,
as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were;
any mans death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankinde;
And therefore never send to
know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee...John Donne (1571-1631)
-
42
just another religion
by teejay inpatriotism is a religion just like every other religion.
either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.
just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.
-
-
GinnyTosken
Larc,
What would you have done if your mother had killed two or three members of the family?
If I or other family members were not in immediate danger, my choice would have been the same. I would have committed my mother.
If she were still holding the gun, I'm not sure. Perhaps there would be a way to get the gun from her. Perhaps we could have distracted her or calmed her down. These were methods we used at other times.
I think I have ventured into an area that is too painful for me to discuss further.
DannyBear and Tdogg,
Please go ahead and choose your teams and paint your enemies as scum sucking pigs. Punish them with death and relish the executions. I cannot forget that these men have families. I cannot forget that they are human, just as I am, and misguided by fanatical religious thinking, just as I once was.
Ginny
-
42
just another religion
by teejay inpatriotism is a religion just like every other religion.
either you believie it and live it or you don't.. i see people waving the flag at sporting events, hear them mouthing the words, "we're all one nation, blah, blah, blah" but then they go out and flip one another off in the parking lot.
just like people at the kingdom hall who supposedly love jehovah (or jesus or allah) and after the meeting is over, they go right back to the way they were.. love of country is no more influential than love of god.
-
-
GinnyTosken
Dannybear,
What would you do if you had a terrorist in your own family? This person carried a gun in her purse, threatened to kill you, your father, and your sisters and bury you under the house where no one would find you. She damaged the things your father valued. He planted trees; she broke off the branches. He valued his car; she keyed obscenities into the paint. He valued his dignity; she publicly humiliated him. When members of the family acted as a human strait-jacket, she begged for a cigarette and then burned their arms with it.
Meet my mother, Danny.
My mother had some valid complaints against my father. She also projected old childhood wounds on him.
I had her committed.
This is the analogy I personally use to grasp the current situation. I am part of the human family. The men responsible for this act are fanatics. Their thinking is warped. I hope terrorists are strait-jacketed by every means possible--political isolation, freezing financial assets, physical incarceration. I also hope that the world will treat the mindset that caused the terrorism.
My mother was treated, and while she can still be manipulative and coercive, she is no longer a terrorist. I realize not all terrorists will respond to therapy. I hope they are restrained.
Ginny