Posts by GinnyTosken

30

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated!

by AIRVIEW1 in

jw
friends

only some of the people of israel are truly god's people,and only some of abraham's desendants are the true children of abraham.

abraham's true children are those who become god's children because of the promise god made to abraham.

before the two boys were born, god told rebekah,"the older will serve the younger".

GinnyTosken

Airview1,

Yes Ginny can a lepord change his spots?
What would Gods mercy be for if he could not extend it to one of his dishonorable clay pots that asked for it?

I am sorry that I didn't read your original post more carefully. I ended up repeating many of the points you'd already made.

If there is a God, I don't want to believe that he is so arbitrary. Many of the Biblical descriptions of "justice" make no sense to me. If human beings acted in some of the ways that are attributed to God, we'd be appalled.

I've given up trying to make sense of the Bible. I believe it is a record of a people trying to understand God's ways as best they could. It's helpful to see how they grew from concepts such as collective judgment to individual judgment, the legalism of the law to the law of love, and how they wrestled with other questions of their day. I don't think their answers necessarily have to be our answers.

From what I've seen, human beings can change their behavior. It isn't always easy, and we must fight against some influences over which we have little control--heredity, environment, etc. If there is a God, I want to believe that he understands, has compassion, and shows mercy.

Ginny

15

So, did you miss me ?

by Simon in

jw
friends

er ... on second thoughts, don't answer that!.

just to let you know i'm back from my trip to visit my dad in canada.. he's doing ok ... he's out of hospital and was looking a lot better when i left.

he still feels a bit poorly during the night but hopefully he'll get over this and i hope he doesn't start overdoing things again.. it was great to see my sister and her family again ... i promised my niece that she could come over and stop with us for he summer hols (hey, kids here only have a few weeks off ... i didn't know they had months!).

GinnyTosken

Simon,

We all painted out keyboards black to mourn your absence. Or maybe it was just a Goth phase . . .

I took a peek in at the Esau/Jacob thread this morning, and I think from now on you should use this "godly" defense whenever anyone questions the justice of your administrative authori-tay:

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Romans 9:15)

I'm glad your father is doing better. Angharad did a lovely job of holding down the fort while you were away, but it's good to have you back. The place just isn't the same without our favorite pub proprietor.

Ginny

30

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated!

by AIRVIEW1 in

jw
friends

only some of the people of israel are truly god's people,and only some of abraham's desendants are the true children of abraham.

abraham's true children are those who become god's children because of the promise god made to abraham.

before the two boys were born, god told rebekah,"the older will serve the younger".

GinnyTosken

Reasoning along Biblical lines, it seems to me that if I happen to be a lump of clay designed for "dishonorable use," I would actually be resisting the will of God if I tried to act honorably.

Ginny

30

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated!

by AIRVIEW1 in

jw
friends

only some of the people of israel are truly god's people,and only some of abraham's desendants are the true children of abraham.

abraham's true children are those who become god's children because of the promise god made to abraham.

before the two boys were born, god told rebekah,"the older will serve the younger".

GinnyTosken

Frenchy,

I have, and still do, often wonder about that passage. What was the basis for God's love of one and hatred of the other when neither had done anything to warrant such a reaction?

Isn't the answer in the Bible itself? We are "pots of clay," and God may arbitrarily do with us as he wishes:

As it is written,
"I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau."
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. . . .
You will say to me then, "Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?
But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, "Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use?
--Romans 9:13-21

Sounds to me like the same answer used in Job--"I'm bigger and more powerful, so shut up and don't question my authori-tay."

Ginny

30

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated!

by AIRVIEW1 in

jw
friends

only some of the people of israel are truly god's people,and only some of abraham's desendants are the true children of abraham.

abraham's true children are those who become god's children because of the promise god made to abraham.

before the two boys were born, god told rebekah,"the older will serve the younger".

GinnyTosken

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman discusses the stories of the patriarchs, including Jacob and Esau. If the authors are correct, these stories were intended to be allegories about tribes, nations, and political disputes.

"Yes I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau" appears to fall into this pattern. These words first appear in an "oracle" from Malachi and are an interpretation of the political histories of Israel and Edom.

I have loved you, says the LORD. But you say, "How have you loved us?" Is not Esau Jacob's brother? says the LORD. Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau; I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals. If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the LORD of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, until they are called the wicked country, the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.
--Malachi 1:2-5

Below is a sample of the book. Information in [ ] has been added by me.

The relationships of Israel [by Israel, the authors mean the northern 10-tribe kingdom] and Judah with their eastern neighbors are also clearly reflected in the patriarchal narratives. Through the eighth and seventh centuries BCE their contacts with the kingdoms of Ammon and Moab had often been hostile; Israel, in fact, dominated Moab in the early ninth century BCE. It is therefore highly significant--and amusing--how the neighbors to the east are disparaged in the patriarchal genealogies. Genesis 19:30-38 (significantly, a J text ["J" meaning the Jahvist thread, believed to have been influenced by southern priests from Judah]) informs us that those nations were born from an incestuous union. After God overthrew the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his two daughters sought shelter in a cave in the hills. The daughters, unable to find proper husbands in their isolated situation--and desperate to have children--served wine to their father until he became drunk. They then lay with him and eventually gave birth to two sons: Moab and Ammon. No seventh century Judahite looking across the Dead Sea toward the rival kingdoms would have been able to suppress a smile of contempt at a story of such a disreputable ancestry.
The biblical stories of the two brothers Jacob and Esau provide an even clearer case of seventh century perceptions presented in ancient costume. Genesis 25 and 27 (southern, J texts) tell us about the twins--Esau and Jacob--who are about to be born to Isaac and Rebecca. God says to the pregnant Rebecca: "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples, born of you, shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the elder shall serve the younger" (25:23). As events unfold, we learn that Esau is the elder and Jacob the younger. Hence the description of the two brothers, the fathers of Edom and Israel, serves as a divine legitimation for the political relationship between the two nations in late monarchic times. Jacob-Israel is sensitive and cultured, while Esau-Edom is a more primitive hunter and man of the outdoors. But Edom did not exist as a distinct political entity until a relatively late period. From the Assyrian sources we know that there were no real kings and no state in Edom before the late eighth century BCE. Edom appears in ancient records as a distinct entity only after the conquest of the region by Assyria. And it became a serious rival to Judah only with the beginning of the lucrative Arabian trade. The archaeological evidence is also clear: the first large-scale wave of settlement in Edom accompanied by the establishment of large settlements and fortresses may have started in the late eighth century BCE but reached a peak only in the seventh and early sixth century BCE. Before then, the area was sparsely populated. And excavations at Bozrah--the capital of Late Iron II Edom--revealed that it grew to become a large city only in the Assyrian period.
Thus here too, the stories of Jacob and Esau--of the delicate son and the mighty hunter--are skillfully fashioned as archaizing legends to reflect the rivalries of late monarchic times.
See also http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=3587&site=3

Ginny

9

happy birthday to my best friend, Bobsgirl!!!!!!

by aluminutty in

jw
friends

brightstar, my sweet bright*: !.

today is your birthday.

happy birthday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GinnyTosken

Happy birthday, Bob's Girl!

Ginny

49

The Baby and the Bath Water

by NeonMadman in

jw
friends

the other day, i was messaged by a young jw guy (using yahoo messenger, where i am breezyone2001; chat me up, gang!).

his opening line to me was, "why are you attacking the witnesses?

" i responded by asking him in what way i was attacking the witnesses, and he said that he saw my name in a yahoo club for ex-jw's.

GinnyTosken

19

A Gentle Stir Or Shake 'Em Rigid?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

just lately i seem to be encountering the occasional jw partaking of a bevvy or two in my local pub.

so, i was wondering, what would i do if a dub came in for a pint of lunch and then, after noticing me, activated his implanted shun-the-apostate chip?

actually, i know exactly what i would do, i would tell him to eff off and use a different pub.. so it was, that on tuesday night, around about 9.

GinnyTosken

Bring on the dancing girls!

You deserve them. Bravo, Englishman!

Ginny

22

Avoiding arguments/hurt feelings on JW.com

by teejay in

jw
friends

for exjws (and jws, too), simon's forum is one of the most interesting and potentially beneficial sites on the entire internet since it's a small-scale version of life as it really is.

people from a variety of social, racial and national groups who make up an extended familytied together by a common history of life in the borgcome to share their day to day experiences and openly debate issues old and new.. as different as we are, breakdowns in communication happen and instead of learning something or getting a fresh way of looking at an issue, what should be a reasonable debate turns into an insult-fest.

people, some still hurting from bad experiences as a dub, get hurt even more and bitter feuds result that are felt for a long time.

GinnyTosken

Some say that, "well... it's up to Hillary to rationally consider the words, in his mind render them powerless, and continue to post."

Some people take some other people's words out of context and misinterpret them.

Hillary_step left. That was Hillary_step's choice. Who and what influenced him to make that decision? Only he can say. Each of us can estimate the share we had in influencing Hillary_step's decision, but only he knows for sure.
. . .
If I am a conscientious person, I will consider the effects my choices may have on others when I decide what to do. I can only guess at what effect my words and actions will have and must make the best choice I can in each instance.
. . .
I also think it's very important to remember that many of the people who come to this site will likely not have a strong sense of self and may be highly suggestible. We can each conscientiously try to find a balance between caring for our own needs and looking out for the needs of others. Personally, I don't feel that I must return to JW-speak, but I don't jump in a newbie's face with accusations, either.
I am very sorry about what happened to Hillary_step, but I also understand that this discussion board suffers from what MommieDark calls the "bell jar effect." Most of us here were wounded in similar ways. We all come here in various stages of grief--anger, sadness, guilt, remorse, inadequacy, depression. While I feel for the newbie posting his first post, I also try to make allowances for the people who are already here. We're all learning and coping with our own hurt feelings. While I wish we would all react in ways that show understanding, compassion, and maturity, I realize that it is unrealistic to expect this from a bell jar full of hurting people.
I think the best we can hope for is a balance between reactions. I'm glad you [Larc] were there to offer a hand to Hillary_step. I hope that at least one of us in the bell jar will be there with a welcoming word when newbies arrive. From what I've observed, this is usually true.
from "Misdiagnosis" http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19442&site=3

Ginny

54

I Went in Field Service Yesterday!!

by Valentine in

jw
friends

i must say i thoroughly enjoyed doing streetwork for the first time in my life!!.

it was really cold here in chicago yesterday,snow clouds looming in the sky.

about 10 am i decided to run home for my cofee break.. as i rushed down the main street,walking quickly,i saw 2 groups of jw's w/ their mags on the main street near home.. i haven't seen any around my territory since last spring.. humph i thought.. i double-timed it home,bundled up,grabbed my stacks of silentlambs posters and ran back to the main street.. i stood on the corner,several feet ahead of them and started saying hi to passers by.

GinnyTosken

I can only echo RunningMan and Jan in thanking you for sharing such an upbuilding and happifying experience, Sister Tina.

I am curious about something, though. Since there was no brother with you, did you wear a head covering when you said your prayer before beginning service?

Having a brandy after service sounds a whole lot better than doughnuts.

Ginny