I remember thinking that most people who were in other churches were trinitarian. Then I found out what the trinity was and I realized that while most of them teach it in their creeds, many of the people have differing views on it.
I have heard explanations by various church goers that sound like modalism. (God putting on three masks or roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) Also, that God is tripartate. Neither of these are the trinity.
Others that I've talked to describe Jesus as someone who was created by God and sounds a lot like Arianism. So I don't think there is a consensus even within the churches.
However, most will affirm that Christ has the nature of God, even if they do not think that he exists in the same essence. Maybe a like essence. Like semi-arians.
LayingLow
JoinedPosts by LayingLow
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"If you are Christian you are definately Trinitarian"
by Sirona inmy jw mother thinks that all christians (non jws who call themselves christian) are all trinitarian.. i tried to point out that there are certain groups who are not trinitarian, but she seemed to think that all christian groups in babylon the great believe in the trinity.. is it true that only fringe groups reject the trinity?.
sorry for my ignorance but i don't know much about mainstream christianity.. i would like to email her (my mum) a list of religions which reject the trinity but are also christian.
i also heard of groups who believe and preach about jehovah as gods name.. sirona.
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LayingLow
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Heavens Scent...still Jesus performs miracles...a comparison of WT's God...
by justhuman inthe story it can be found on the following link:.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/s/smellofrain.htm.
after leaving the wt i found that jesus is alive and still perfoming miracles.
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LayingLow
You nailed quite a few points there. I remember waking up to the omnipresence of God. I had always imagined God as some person way out there in heaven (literally above us). Quite ineffectual and malevolent as they describe him. That was funny how you put the new light thing. Because everyone knows it is men that come up with the ideas, they always talk about how understanding changes. But if you view it as a revelation from God over the issue, it would seem that the God they are claiming to speak for is confused.
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I NEED YOUR HELP !!
by thebigdebate inhere is my story:.
i was born and raised a jw.
i aux pioneered (60 hours) in the summers when school was out.
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LayingLow
I can't help you so much with the historical aspects behind the 587/607 thing. But I think that looking at Luke 21:24 in context is quite telling. In vs. 20 it begins with Jerusalem being encamped by armies. The "anti-typical" fulfillment of this to a JW is the great tribulation breaking out. You may notice that in vs. 24 the trampling of Jerusalem (where the holy ones are or that which they constitute) ends when the gentile times ends.
So the gentile times end when the great tribulation ends. That means the gentile times expire in the future and not 94 years in the past. This used to fit the witness explanation since they believe they were in time of trouble (great tribulation) from around the late 1870's until 1914. They expected 1914 to end the gentile times and the great tribulation.
Then they changed their doctrine so that the great tribulation took place from 1914-1918 so this could potentially still make sense in chronological order. However, now that they have pegged the great tribulation as a future event, they are chronologically out of order.
In addition, you may ask her to summarize the events surrounding the gentile times expiring. Jerusalem gets trampled. Gentiles do the trampling. It ends after a set period of time.
Now look through the scriptures for set periods of time when Jerusalem gets trampled, gentiles do the tramping, and there is a set time. Here are some:
Dan 7:25- And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.
Dan 12:7-And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Rev 11:1,2-And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and one said, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. And the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
That same period is mentioned again in Rev 12 but I'm not sure if its the same events being described. Either way, if there is a gentile time that needs to be known, it appears to me that it would be the three and a half times from the above stated scriptures and not the 7 times which had a literal fulfillment in Nebuchadnezzar.
I hope this helps. Chronology seems very messy to me. Chronological order and accurate application seems a bit easier (or at least makes more sense to me). -
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You never know what may stroke a persons curiosity
by donny ini learned today that one can never know what may make a dedicated jw think.
i have a man working for me who is a pretty devout jw.
he knows i used to attend meetings and occasionaly tries to "rescue" me and i always throw him a few reasons as to why i quit and he just shrugs it off.
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LayingLow
What an odd thing for him to get hung up on. I suppose it mainly happened because the speaker had given him such a bad setup. I remember being a JW and being told that the sword was shown to men by God at the garden and that it was a divine instrument. I guess they don't have unity in everything.
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when did the truth bcome the truth
by logic ini was sitting here thinking, which seems to be an indangered thing to do nowadays.
it was about the last several discussions i have had with jws that i am related to and friends with.
the things that i noticed is that you can hold the discussion for about 10 minutes while they try to answer your questions then they get agitated and then angry, they refuse to talk anymore and tell you that they know it is the truth no matter what so called proof you have, and that is all just apostate talk.
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Do YOU Look Like YOUR Avatar/JWD mini-pic
by RAYZORBLADE indo you look like your jwd profile pic?.
just curious.. that stupid pic of me in a columbia rain jacket is real.
it's 2 yrs.
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poll/ survey on what you "were" (rank in your hall)
by burningbridges ini wasjust really curious to see what the average of everyone's "history" is here, and also how many "higer ups" we have that have abandoned the ways.
so what were you, an elder?
a pioneer?
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Dropped from my Bible Study like a hot potato
by navytownroger ini had a bible study with a jehovah's witness for the past year and a half.
i was also attending meetings, but never went out in field service.
during a recent study, i told the conductor that i didn't believe in the 'annointed' & didn't believe the fds had a 'hotline' to jehovah.
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LayingLow
I remember the CO and his wife being the axe men....
They would come on studies or calls and tell us if they thought we should drop the call/study, or at least they would strongly hint at it. Questions like "Do you see [insert name here] becoming a witness?". If you said no then they would encourage you to drop them and find others.
I was a pioneer at the time. I think that they encourage the pioneers to do that more to be effective proselytizers. They do not seem as worried about efficiency with publishers (in my experience).
Was the guy who was studying with you a pioneer? -
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How can I know for sure that the WTS isn't God's organization?
by nbernat ini go back and forth everyday.
one day i'm like, "suppress your gay feelings and what you think is wrong about this organization and keep going forward because you want eternal life and all of your friends are here and it's as close to the truth as it can possibly get so just deal with it.
" others i'm like, "live your life.
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LayingLow
How can you know for sure that the Catholic or Orthodox Christian Church isn't God's organization?
I don't attend at either but it's something to consider. If God has to have an organization, where could we find a parallel? How about Israel. Was Israel faithful? Not much of the time. God was constantly sending individuals to readjust those in power.
Applying this to the CC or OC, why wouldn't we assume that they are still God's anointed channel for distributing the spiritual food? You may think they have done a lousy job, but so did Israel.
The only reason you could assume the WTS is God's only organization would be if he decided to cast off all the others at some point in time. This is where the WT teaching on 1919 comes in. Without the appointment in 1919, they could not be God's only organization. The idea behind 1919 is that it follows three and one-half years after 1914. Do you believe in the 1914 prophecy ? (Clue, Contextually look at Luke 21. Do the gentile times end before the time of trouble [great tribulation] or after?) If you don't believe in 1914, then 1919 is discounted as well. If that is the case, then they can point to no specific time period during which God cast off the other Christian faiths. If he never cast them off, then they are still his organizations (if he works through organizations at all at this point). If the other denominations are not cast off, then the WTS could potentially be among all his belongings but by no means could it solely be his organization. -
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HELP ME, HELP ME...PLEASE!!!
by Quentin interry gave me a copy of "in search of christian freedom"...no disrespect to ray franz...i am bored to tears....can't get past the frist chapter...soaked up coc, turned around and soaked it up again.... highly recomend coc to any jw (one that's not brain dead) or ex-jw (also not brain dead) who needs to know something about how the tower works....great book.... sigh, i seem to no longer have the attention span it takes to read a book of this depth....a sad commentary on me...has the internet dumbed some people down to the point that they can no longer read a book?
if that's what's happended somebody shoot me please... .
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LayingLow
Some parts of it (ISoCF) difficult, but it helped me to deconstruct some of their teachings scripturally. CoC did that as well with the annointed / great crowd break down and the blood doctrine. But ISoCF did it with "the name" and what type of organization is necessary for religion. I didn't follow him on certain things (Michael Servetus view of Jesus), but I thought it was worth my time.
This may be a decent suggestion: Read through the table of contents and find a subject that you are still hung up on and check it out.
A scriptural argument against WTS doctrine is only valuable if you 1.) believe in the value of scripture (or 2. really just want to prove to someone else that they are wrong using the Bible). If neither of those two are true for you, then ISoCF will likely be a very dry read. I want to add that it could also be a dry read for you even if both of these are true, but seems like if definitely would if neither of the two are true.