johnny, Here are some of my thoughts on this. If JW's are not the true religion then it wouldn't necessarily follow that an ex-JW board would have the smoking gun of the truth. If you believe in annihalationism (hell = destruction) then check out Adventist beliefs. That is what Russell started his religion from anyways. If you think Witnesses have a lot of true basics then Adventism is probably the route to check. Maybe you could also explore Christadelphians.
If you think an error occurred in Christianity before this, then I would check into Protestant denominations like the Quakers, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans etc... Check out Luther's five points and find out if you agree with them. If not, maybe you should go back further. Roman Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox Church preceded this. Investigate them. Who was right at Nicea? Read publications by Athanasius and the other Church Fathers. Check out the Anthology of the Church Fathers at ccel.org.
I would verify my beliefs before I took a JW checklist and tried to see which religion fit. Research the Deity of Christ. That may open many doors for your. Was following some religion what Jesus wanted? Did he just want you to follow him?
I offer more questions than answers but I think that all of these questions are valid. Truthfully, I don't expect to find those answers here though I do frequent this place. Sometimes I find helpful information but this is more of a place to vent than anything. I find that when doctrinal issues are discussed you can get both sides of the arguments and understand how as Witnesses we were trained to misapply and twist scripture.
There are hurting people here. It's not a formal scholastic approach to Biblical interpretation that you will find. It is bleeding hearts. Husbands and wives torn over religious beliefs. People emerging from indoctrination that they have trusted their entire lives. Families, sons, daughters, sisters, and brothers ripped apart. I think you have a walked into a hospital and complained that everyone is whining over injuries.
I actually agree with you that 90% of the things discussed here are not reasons to leave a religion. However, the other 10% are excellent reasons to leave a religion and better reasons to tell others not too join in the first place. If I'm molested by someone I may complain about how s/he's dumb, a misfit, dresses sloppily, etc... I don't do it because these are good reasons not to like someone. I do it because I'm dealing with extreme issues of anger/mistrust/loneliness that the person has caused. Please see through all of this... It's pain.
At least that's my personal opinion. You're dealing with people who are hurting. When someone is in pain and you say that 90% of the things they complain about are not legit you may be correct but don't expect them to thank you for it.
I hope you don't feel that I'm trying to come down on you. Just please be understanding.
LayingLow
JoinedPosts by LayingLow
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Criticism worthy of your time
by johnnyc inas i read posts throughout this site, i became amazed at some of the criticism people have actually spent time creating, reading (as i did), and responding to.
dont get me wrong, some of what i read are good issues that seem worthy (to me) of discussion, but to be honest, i find that 90% of the posts are based on ridiculous petty topics that are obviously tied to a sense of deep hatred of the wtbts.
i can appreciate that some of the people who leave such post, and have this hatred, are taking their time to discuss such things as part of a therapeutic process to combat the fact they spent a large portion of their life dedicated to an organization they feel abandoned them at some point.
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LayingLow
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God dammit!!! I hate this cult!
by bluesbreaker59 inso my girlfriend and i are getting very serious, and i've bought her engagement ring, should be done being built sometime in may.
then at some point later, i'm going to ask her to marry me.
she was with me and picked out her ring, so she knows its coming.
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LayingLow
How about this:
"Dad, if you don't go to my wedding all of your friends are going to ask why you aren't there. I would hate to have to tell them that it is because we have religious disagreements. I don't want to make it a bad witness for them, and I doubt you do either. You probably would hurt the organization more by not going."
Just a thought. -
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ENOCH & the Watchtower Society
by Honesty ingenesis 5.
5 so all the days of adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died.
8 so all the days of seth amounted to nine hundred and twelve years and he died.
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LayingLow
Hebrews 11:5-
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God:"
Hebrews 11:13-
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth"
If I had to guess I would have guessed that the first meant he wasn't dead, but the verse in 13 seems to indicate that he is.
Genesis 5:21-24-
"And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
So God translated Enoch. Aside from letting him skip the dying part of entering death I can't really figure out what else it could mean. If he was translated in space to another location he would have continued to walk with God and therefore his years walking with God couldn't have been summed up. I thought maybe he could be translated through time and then suddenly appear (maybe as one of the two witnesses in Revelation). If that were the case, he would be translated, would not have seen death, and wouldn't exist presently. With the exception of Hebrews 11:13 I would go with that.
I don't think the being translated through time would nullify Jesus statement that no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven. But there still is that Heb 11:13.
I actually intended to write this post proving that he wasn't currently dead but I'm leaning the opposite direction now. -
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ENOCH & the Watchtower Society
by Honesty ingenesis 5.
5 so all the days of adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died.
8 so all the days of seth amounted to nine hundred and twelve years and he died.
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LayingLow
Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 65/12 years = 5.42 years old
If that 12 lunar months are each counted as years in the totals given, does the above sound reasonable? I imagine that a counter is that 365 years old and still kicking sounds about the same, but the one is expressly written and the other is not.
I was reading something lately about the Genesis account and it was arguing that the lifespans were, well I'll just let you guys read it for yourself: http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/chronology.html -
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The 144,000, a Subset of "Spiritual Israel"?
by DNCall inthis is an alternative to "spiritual israel" and the 144,000 being one and the same.. two scriptures might support the subset idea:.
first, revelation 7:4-8 states that the 144,000 are "out of" the 12 symbolic tribes of "spiritual israel"--12,000 "out of" each tribe.
this would indicate to me that "spiritual israel" is a larger body than the 144,000 (whether a literal number or not).. second, the new covenant is said to be between god and "spiritual israel," entitling its members to be children of god and brothers of christ.
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LayingLow
Some terminology used for this is "church militant" and "church triumphant".
The same thing struck me a while back as well, "out of". Funny I missed that for so long. -
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Can any who grew up JW relate to this?
by Mickey mouse inconfession time!
i was raised in the troof and therefor never "chose" it.
i find it really hard to get my head around why anyone would ever join this organization as an adult.
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LayingLow
Wow, I can really relate with Awakened at Gilead. I recall showing people scriptures that I knew sounded very convincing but at the same time feeling something was very wrong. I can see how people can buy it. Mix in some convincing arguments + involve the emotional pacification of having all of the answers.
How many people come in to the religion because they believe the governing body is God's mouthpiece and that Jesus isn't their mediator? I doubt many. These are the doctrines that you realize later, when it's too late. I think they snag people with the unitarian view of God, annihalationism, and millenialism. Once they get someone with that, the mind shuts off and the "we must believe everything they say because we believe the big things they already told us" sets in. -
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What is Prayer ?????
by TooBad TooSad ini believe that jehovah's witnesses are a cult and that many of the doctrines of the watchtower.
society are laughable.
when i was an active zealous elder i prayed alot every day.
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LayingLow
When, as a JW, I believed God had a spirit body (like an angel but not exactly). This belief in Him having a body with defined form leads to many other conclusions.
1. He must dwell somewhere
2. He must use the Holy Spirit to control things
Later, I came to realize from reading the scriptures that God is omnipresent and that he fills all things. David said in Psalm 139:7-8 "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there."
After thinking about it, I realized that God is spirit, not a spirit creature. He can't be contained by creation or he has created something larger than himself. God contains all things and is in all things, though all things are not God.
I considered the consequences of this realization.
1. God actually fills all thing and is therefore in all places including the space that I occupy
2. Prayers have no distance to travel to God, as he is already present
I found that quite enlightening. I don't know if you made those connections or not but I think that it contributes toward an understanding of prayer.
This also has helped me a lot, knowing that God is not "out there", but right here. -
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Why did Death not stop as soon as the RANSOM was paid?
by jwfacts interry's recent thread about god's love made me start wondering the above question.
normally a ransom is done as a swap, the payment is made on exchange.
2000 years ago jesus made payment by dieing.
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LayingLow
I think the following link is worth checking out. Eastern Orthodoxy has a very different view of Jesus death. They will also point out some of the logical results of assuming that God's sense of justice was offended, etc...
The link is:
http://oodegr.com/english/swthria/antil1.htm (The Problem with the Juridical Position)
http://oodegr.com/english/swthria/swthria.htm (Salvation Issues Title Menu) -
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It was awful
by Mrs Smith inas i posted in a previous thread, i went to a friends funeral on friday( i'll call him peter).
it was my first time back to a kh in years.
as i walked in i overheard a "sister" telling her friend that she had to come straight from work and that's why she was wearing pants and that she hoped no one would think that she was "wordly".
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LayingLow
That was a good comeback. I think I'll use that sometime too if the occasion presents itself.
I don't know what to add to anyone else's comment about the infomercial part, just dido. -
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praying before a meal
by megaflower ini have stopped.
it brings up too many memorys of having some elder pray for the cong before we partook of any food.
it just seemd like a big production, all would gather around and bow heads in silence while some senior male gave thanks- no more- no thanks
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LayingLow
Since God knows what you are thinking, can't prayer be just that, thinking, and appreciative thoughts at that? I don't say prayers out loud when I am praying by myself because I don't think it's necessary. However, if I were to pray for a group I would speak out loud so that they could hear the sentiments of the prayer and agree if they wish. If you don't break to appreciate He can't even read your heart about it because it may be that you have never taken a moment to consider whether or not you appreciate it. Enjoying something and appreciating it are two different things. I think most people enjoy food but I don't know if all of those appreciate it. Life is better when examined and appreciated and therefore prayer is appreciative contemplation which is for our benefit and not a burdensome ritual we must continually repeat. That's my sentiment at least.
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If he is your God and Lord, and you are his spirit begotten son, then he is your Father.
When I call my dad (in the flesh) on the phone, I don't call him by his name. I call him Dad. He knows me and I know him. I can't imagine calling him and then he says to me "Well, I don't know who you are because you don't use the exact pronunciation of my name." If he gets a call from me, he knows it's me even if I don't say "dad", but I always do. The argument that we need to some how address God by a name in prayer doesn't seem biblical but it does seem sort of legalistic. I don't remember a scripture where Christ Jesus addressed his father by name. But I do remember instances where he not only referred to Him as father, but also told us that we should as well. -Matthew 5:9.