LayingLow

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Posts by LayingLow

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  5

  Jehovah's Witnesses are the most Meterialistic people on the planet!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  when i visited my mum, pioneer family would complain about brother m_____ who just brought 2 new toyota camry's...brother n_____ who keeps changing to bigger houses.

  the brothers family are all pioneers and seem fixated on meterial things!

  i'm asked every time i fly down.

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  LayingLow

  What is the desire of JW's that they promote:
  
  Good health, housing, plenty of food, etc... in the future Whether all of your desires are on having "good things" in the future or the present makes no difference, it is still materialism.
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  20

  Materialism: An Example

  by WTWizard in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i have just realized what crap material items the witlesses live with.

  just now, i went through my place and marked the things that the witlesses stocked me up with at the time i moved in 1x years ago (more work, hounders, to figure out just when).

  and i found plenty of crap.. first, the "furniture" was flimsy wicker.

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  LayingLow
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  19

  Now open "Harvard Witness Window Cleaners University"

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  since the society has banned higher education the "harvard witness window cleaners university" offers witnesses many courses to better themselves.....in field service.

  1. phd in window ledge wiping.

  2. masters degree in scraping paint off glass.

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  LayingLow

  I went to that school as well..
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  42

  Economy Fixed. All is A-OK

  by cameo-d in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  why do i get the feeling they are about to tell us all is well?.

  why do i get the feeling they are about to give out a false sense of security?.

  why do i have the feeling we are about to hear the big lie...the "peace and security" announcement?.

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  LayingLow

  What happens when those other countries want their money back from the U.S.? How will they collect. Suppose that you put leans on your home and everything in it and then you finally ran out of cash and credit with others. Most people at that point are powerless to stop others from taking the things they put leans on. Is the U.S. incapable of protecting itself from repo? No way! They have a larger arsenal than any other nation on earth. Basically were looking at a military giant borrowing everyone else's money and using it. What happens when the others want it back, it's too bad. I'm not saying it's right, but it is the way things are.
  
  Now, by no means have things got that far. If they do, maybe something like the new deal will come along to build America's infrastructure back up and lower unemployment like in the 30's. It is what Japan did in the early 90's to keep unemployment low and rebuild infrastructure after their housing market collapsed and they lost three years of GDP.
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  64

  Has the WTBS ever explained the trinity?

  by wobble in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if i were going to comment on a deep philosophical doctrine, i would first outline what that doctrine was,has the wtbs ever dne this properly with the trinity?

  from memory they have only ever reasoned at the level"one plus one plus one = 3, not one" type of argument,and odd references to trinities in pagandom.. surely a college education would be of benefit to them so they know how to present a thesis?.

  love.

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  LayingLow

  It blows my mind that this how often that type of example is given. I've heard of the egg, the apple, the sun, etc.. As long as God is said to be one person who manifests himself in three forms a person is describing modalism. I have heard preachers say that it was like God has three masks that he can put on. This is not the trinity.
  
  The trinity is saying that there is one life force, i.e. the life of God, that is shared by three persons. As soon as a person begins to describe it as one person and three aspects of that person (Like soul, body, spirit) they are leaving the trinity doctrine and explaining something else. If you want, go to a place like ccel.org and look up works by Athanasius such as the following link: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xxi.ii.i.ii.html
  
  Some of the descriptions he uses are further along in the text than where I linked to.
  
  I just wanted to point out what they doctrine is vs. what it isn't.
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  19

  How do mainstream Christians interpret the live-forever-on-Earth scriptures

  by neverendingjourney in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  you know the proof texts we used to "prove" that the "righteous would inherit the earth and reside for forever upon it?

  " how do mainstream christians interpret those scriptures?

  i gather that the scriptures in isaiah speak metaphorically to the return of the jews to the promised land, but what about psalms 37?

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  LayingLow

  I don't know about basing doctrine off of the book of Revelation since it is so symbolic, but assuming that doing so could lead to an expectation about the earth, here goes:
  
  If we didn't look at Rev 20:5 with WT eyes and but we did from a pre-millenialist view: Rev 20 starts with Satan being abyssed. Following that there are thrones of judgment given to followers of and it says that they reign a thousand years and that the dead are not raised until the thousand years are over.
  
  This period ends around vs 8 or 9 with fire from heaven devouring those who come against the saints. Because visions in revelation end so abruptly and a new one begins I'm not sure that you can continue reading chronologically, but if you did vs. 11 seems to indicate heaven and earth are gone and that now the dead are raised and judged. This is followed by chapter 21 with mention of a new heaven and earth.
  
  I can definitely see how if you took this all chronologically and literally you could easily end up with:
  1. Satan bound for 1k years
  2. Saints resurrected to rule
  3. Nations of earth ruled by saints
  4. Satan let loose
  5. 1k years ends in fire and heaven and earth flee
  6. General resurrection and judgment
  7. New heaven and earth
  
  Looking at it from this perspective, what types of bodies do the saints have during this time?
  1 John 3:2-
  2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
  
  The reason I mention this is that Jesus could manifest himself where ever he wanted post resurrection. He didn't seem constrained by matter, yet he could materialize at will. It is said in 1 Cor 15 that we shall be raised a spiritual body. I don't claim to fully understand that, but it seems that it would be basically like Jesus body. While mentioning the whole thing about a spiritual body, I don't believe Jesus body was "destroyed by gases" as C.T. Russel put it. He either resurrected his body and transformed it in some glorified way, or he lied in John Chapter 2 when he said that if they tore down his temple he would build it back up.
  
  John 2:19-
  19 Jesus answered, and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 The Jews then said: Six and forty years was this temple in building; and wilt thou raise it up in three days? 21 But he spoke of the temple of his body.
  
  To sum it up, I basically agree with another poster who mentioned having resurrection bodies capable of materializing as well as not being constrained by matter. In that case, it is needed now to have a body during the 1k years but after that maybe the new heavens and earth will be "spiritual". I don't know.
  
  Leolia made some nice points about how they really expected a destruction of the earth. I can definitely see how it can be read out of this passage. But, like I said, I don't feel incredibly comfortable trying to discern doctrine from an intentionally symbolic book that has other methods of interpretation.
  
  I want to add another opinion as well. When we discuss the circumstances of a future life, is it really necessary to get all caught up in the specifics? It seems to me that it is the quality of life that is guaranteed and can be discerned with much less difficulty. And don't we all want the same thing anyways? We want people to be well(full of life), and we want to be in touch with others and God. These things are promised, anyways. As JW's we got all hung up on details and were assertive about things we could not be sure of (and now realize we may actually be rather sure they are not right), so I prefer to focus on the things that are much more clear from reading the scriptures. If life is amazing and you enjoy it with others and God, why would you care if you have a house you have to keep re-roofing and painting ad infinity.
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  5

  jw's emphasis life not dependant on works, but

  by booby in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  obedience it is all about obedience and zeal to that obedience in the mind of the wts..

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  LayingLow

  There are scriptures that talk about works and others that talk about salvation. Getting the two mixed up can definitely lead to a confusing theology.
  
  Works: 1 Cor 3:15- 14 If any man’s work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.
  
  Works can be rewarded, but works do not save. Faith saves. Think about the talents and how the "servants" are rewarded. It is definitely based on works. At the same time, notice that they are being called servants. This emphasizes our role as workers rather than sons. We are never told that works "save" us. Becoming sons is through faith, and salvation is an inheritance. But if you have faith for salvation, and a lot of works that are not performed with good motive etc, the day will show them up.
  
  I think it is important to alway consider the role that the scripture is discussing. As a JW we were prejudiced towards interpreting works scriptures as relating to salvation.
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  31

  HELLO, I'M NEW AND.........

  by billie jean in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i never believed a word of any of it !.

  raised a j.w from birth, i'd sit in the meetings and at conventions wondering what the hell it was all about and that it was all one big joke and imagine that they''d all suddenly turn around laughing and pointing at me !!

  saying something like "haha the joke's on you".

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  LayingLow

  I remember feeling the same way at times, that everyone would turn around and say "This isn't real, we just kept feeding you more and more bs to see if you would believe it." Well, they never came out and said it, but I got the drift.
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  5

  Unconditional Love

  by hamilcarr in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm struggling with the concept of 'unconditional love' or friendship.. does it really exist?.

  if so, how would you define it?.

  thanks..

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  LayingLow

  Ok, so I sat and thought about this more and even discussed it. While I think there may be extreme cases that could break almost any humans love for another, they do not seem to happen to the majority of relationships (I'm not talking about a cheating spouse, many people have gotten past that, it can be done). I'm talking more about them becoming so subhuman and changing so radically that they are no longer the person you once knew. Anyways, given the likelihood of this occurring, we would probably be better of to use the term unconditional love to describe that love that we hope we have for others and that they have for us. Sometimes just by saying something is a certain way, it actually contributes towards it being that way. Like just smiling can actually make you happy. I think in a pragmatic way the term can be used and meant with the hope that it is true and the knowledge that it is highly unlikely to ever be broken.
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  23

  November WT: new policy for inactive ones?

  by behemot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the november 15 w.t.

  (study edition) features these two articles:.

  help those who stray from the flock.

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  LayingLow

  Last night I had a dream that an old elder was trying to force me to recant leaving. After I repeatedly told him I wasn't coming back, he issued me a letter that said I was viewed as [some letter that started with an A (not apostate)]. Anyways, the letters do not actually exist, it was just a really weird dream. I have this dream because this guy is so overly in-your-face and sure that no one leaves unless they're wicked, that I would fear discussing the issue of my leaving (don't believe the doctrine), without outting myself.
  
  When the proof of their falsehoods are in your possession, it is a difficult task not to expose them, especially when confronted and told that you probably left for some reason that you didn't. Ah, the pain and irritation of fading, but it has advantages as well.