bttt
Posts by DT
-
11Freedom of Religion?
by DT init's amazing how the watchtower society uses "freedom of religion" as a legal protection to violate the religious freedoms of others.
the punishment for leaving their religion is so severe that many people stay to avoid being cut off from their family and friends.
these people don't really have freedom of religion.. the courts are generally reluctant to interfere in the internal dealings of a church (they might make an exception in extreme cases like child abuse) so the watchtower society has a lot of freedom to use intimidation and the threat of breaking family ties to enforce its own will.
-
-
-
11
Freedom of Religion?
by DT init's amazing how the watchtower society uses "freedom of religion" as a legal protection to violate the religious freedoms of others.
the punishment for leaving their religion is so severe that many people stay to avoid being cut off from their family and friends.
these people don't really have freedom of religion.. the courts are generally reluctant to interfere in the internal dealings of a church (they might make an exception in extreme cases like child abuse) so the watchtower society has a lot of freedom to use intimidation and the threat of breaking family ties to enforce its own will.
-
-
DT
It's amazing how the Watchtower Society uses "freedom of religion" as a legal protection to violate the religious freedoms of others. The punishment for leaving their religion is so severe that many people stay to avoid being cut off from their family and friends. These people don't really have freedom of religion.
The courts are generally reluctant to interfere in the internal dealings of a church (they might make an exception in extreme cases like child abuse) so the Watchtower Society has a lot of freedom to use intimidation and the threat of breaking family ties to enforce its own will. They can always argue that person in question willingly subjected themselves to the authority of the Watchtower Society by getting baptised.
I don't like this, but it doesn't look like it will change in the near future.
This has already been discussed extensively on this site. I don't want to beat a dead horse. I just want to explore what seems to be a small weakness in the Watchtower Society's legal position. I'm not planning on suing or encouraging others to do so. I'm curious and think its wise to consider possible weaknesses, especially if the legal climate changes in the future.
The Watchtower position assumes that a Jehovah's Witness can leave their religion at any time, even if the consequences for doing so are severe. You could even draw the conclusion that if the Watchtower Society wishes to enforce their will on their members, they have a minimum responsibility to at least not interfere with a member's right to resign.
I have learned from personal experience that it is much more difficult to resign from Jehovah's Witnesses than many people think. My experiences have caused me to wonder if the Watchtower Society is living up to their minimum responsibilities to not interfere with an individual's right to choose or reject a religion. If not, then it could put their entire legal defense concerning "willing membership" in jeopardy.
Of course, anybody who wants to resign from Jehovah's Witnesses can just send a disassociation letter. I have done so, yet I'm not entirely satisfied. I feel that the Watchtower Society has some responsibility to do something about it. I can send as many letters as I want, but this doesn't mean that my right to withdraw my membership is being respected.
It appears that the Ex Mormon community has given this issue more thought than us Ex Jehovah's Witnesses. I have done some reading and it appears the Ex Mormons have a belief that the Mormon church has a legal responsibility to respect their letters of resignation, remove them from their membership lists and actually inform the person that this has happened. This makes sense, but I don't know if there are any strong legal precedents to support this, other than vague references to the Bill of Rights and a person's right to freedom of (or from) religion.
I have sent a letter of disassociation and multiple follow up letters, but haven't received any response or indication that the Watchtower Society has done anything about it. I am being shunned, but this could just be a result of the personal letters I sent. I expect that an announcement was probably made (or maybe not, because my letter contained some legal threats), but it seems that I should have a right to be informed about this or at least informed that my name has been removed from their membership lists.
I know the Watchtower Society is reluctant to send correspondence to an apostate like me. They don't want to have a paper trail that can be used against them in a lawsuit. However, it seems that this also weakens their legal defense that membership in their religion is voluntary.
I have also heard about people being disfellowshipped without their knowledge. I wonder what the legal consequences are of that. It seems like they would have to inform the person in order for their relationship to be properly terminated.
I look forward to your opinions or any information you might have. I should state that I'm not qualified to give legal advice and I'll assume the same for any who wish to respond.
-
28
BIG - Irish Gov't Told to Set National Policy on JWs and Blood
by skeeter1 ini can't get this important article to post, so here's the link.
please read it.. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0404/1224244010408.html.
this is the irish authorities that are looking into the jws and blood.
-
-
DT
Thanks purps.
I can't see all the posts. Anybody else have that problem?
-
28
BIG - Irish Gov't Told to Set National Policy on JWs and Blood
by skeeter1 ini can't get this important article to post, so here's the link.
please read it.. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0404/1224244010408.html.
this is the irish authorities that are looking into the jws and blood.
-
-
DT
Thanks for posting this. I sent an email to the NHO. I thought I would concentrate on the issue of vulnerable individuals who might not be able to give implied consent. This is what I wrote:
"I have been reading about efforts to coordinate a national policy about dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusions in Ireland.
I respect and support an individual's right to reject medical treatments that conflict with their religious beliefs. My concern deals with vulnerable individuals who may be improperly coerced to reject treatments that might be in their best interest.
I was raised in the Jehovah's Witness religion. The practices of Jehovah's Witnesses can make it difficult to determine if an an individual is truly giving informed consent, especially if they are a vulnerable individual or are experiencing a temporary diminished capacity for decision making.
I now feel that much of the information I was given about the dangers of blood transfusions in Watchtower literature was inaccurate and deceptive. Unfortunately, Jehovah's Witnesses do not allow criticism of their policies or literature. This could lead to to expulsion and shunning that could effectively destroy their family ties and support network. This left me in a position where I was not free to express my concerns or hear the concerns of others.
Any Jehovah's Witness who accepts a blood transfusion is subject to expulsion and shunning. They are told that they won't be given a resurrection if they die or that they will likely be destroyed at Armageddon if they survive. This is reinforced by graphic images and descriptions in their literature about the terrible day of Armageddon. I believe that these facts should be considered in the case of any vulnerable individual who is pressured to refuse a blood transfusion.
Thank you for considering this important matter. I don't envy the task of formulating a plan that protects the rights and safety of Jehovah's Witnesses. I hope this information will be useful.
Sincerely,
...... -
50
5th Annual Memorial night demonstration at Kingdom Hall!
by the research lady inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l6pq3iuerk&feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc4oroawdus&feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8zcz-eabi8&feature=channel_page memorial night is fast approaching.
our 5th annual demonstration will be held in front of the kingdom hall on bridge lane in wilmington mass.
u.s.a.on thursday april 9,2009. demonstrations on memorial night are very effective in reaching people who may be considering becoming a jehovah's witness.
-
-
DT
"Demonstrating against the policies of the Watchtower organization obviously is not for everyone. But, why would the naysayers try to discourage those who want to speak up. This organization deserves to be exposed. At least it is a starting point in trying to do something. Simply put, what happens when you do nothing...nothing."
I also wonder why a former witness would want to discourage those who want to speak up. It think most of us can agree that the Watchtower Society should be exposed for what it is. It's mostly a question of how this should be done. I would rather see a few people try this approach and then report on their progress. This has been going on for several years. I'm sure that they are learning as time goes by. I don't know if this approach is really effective or not, but I know I won't find out unless people actually try it. I think cult psychology is too complex and varied to just assume that an approach won't work based on our own limited experience.
There are valid concerns about this approach. It may also be true that our experiences as Jehovah's Witnesses may have subtly influenced some of us to believe that fighting against the Watchtower society is futile and counterproductive. We were raised with stories of how opposition usually backfired. We weren't often told about the times when it could be effective, except maybe to scare us from having anything to do with apostates.
I personally think that protests like this might have had a positive effect on me when I was in. I know others feel differently. If someone isn't reached by this approach, they might be reached by something else. However, this wont happen if nobody is willing to do anything.
-
21
If you could clone anything that is extinct what would it be?
by Quirky1 inthe dodo bird maybe?.
-
-
DT
It might be fun to clone a nephilim to play basketball.
-
50
5th Annual Memorial night demonstration at Kingdom Hall!
by the research lady inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l6pq3iuerk&feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc4oroawdus&feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8zcz-eabi8&feature=channel_page memorial night is fast approaching.
our 5th annual demonstration will be held in front of the kingdom hall on bridge lane in wilmington mass.
u.s.a.on thursday april 9,2009. demonstrations on memorial night are very effective in reaching people who may be considering becoming a jehovah's witness.
-
-
DT
I'm glad that some people are doing this. I'm sure that the results will be mixed, hopefully it will be more beneficial than harmful. I think it is fair to say that some dubs will probably never have their eyes opened and will just become more determined when they face "persecution". However, a few might check a website or two and start down the path of recovery. I think it is more important that newcomers to the hall and the general public are warned about the dangers of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The public usually thinks of Witnesses as minor nuisances and don't realise how dangerous they are.
I personally wouldn't be interested in joining this kind of protest, but don't want to criticise those who do. They may be doing some good, or if not, maybe we can at least learn from their mistakes.
I might be interested in joining a protest if certain conditions are met. These are just my preferences.
I don't like doing anything that will make people sympathetic towards the Witnesses. Protesting on their "holy day" might not be the best strategy. The special talk after the memorial (or any other Sunday) might be more effective. There is also the advantage that the signs could be better seen in the daylight and the dubs might not feel as persecuted.
I wouldn't want to join a protest that just advocates an alternate theology.
I would prefer smaller protests that seem less intimidating, something that makes it look like we are trying to educate rather than "protest". If a lot of people want to help, they can always distribute themselves among several halls.
-
13
march 14th is Pi Day
by chickpea in3.1415926535 8979323846 2643383279 5028841971 6939937510 5820974944 5923078164 0628620899 8628034825 3421170679 8214808651 3282306647 0938446095 5058223172 5359408128 4811174502 8410270193 8521105559 6446229489 5493038196 4428810975 6659334461 2847564823 3786783165 2712019091 4564856692 3460348610 4543266482 1339360726 0249141273 7245870066 0631558817 4881520920 9628292540 9171536436 7892590360 0113305305 4882046652 1384146951 9415116094 3305727036 5759591953 0921861173 8193261179 3105118548 0744623799 6274956735 1885752724 8912279381 8301194912 9833673362 4406566430 8602139494 6395224737 1907021798 6094370277 0539217176 2931767523 8467481846 7669405132 0005681271 4526356082 7785771342 7577896091 7363717872 1468440901 2249534301 4654958537 1050792279 6892589235 4201995611 2129021960 8640344181 5981362977 4771309960 5187072113 4999999837 2978049951 0597317328 1609631859 5024459455 3469083026 4252230825 3344685035 2619311881 7101000313 7838752886 5875332083 8142061717 7669147303 5982534904 2875546873 1159562863 8823537875 9375195778 1857780532 1712268066 1300192787 6611195909 2164201989.
-
-
DT
Hey, I think you might have gotten the first thousand digits of pi from one of my blog posts from a few years back (or a post that copied it) The formatting is even the same. If so, it means our paths crossed outside of JWN. That's kind of cool. (To me anyways, I can't seem to get the PM feature to work. Others might not be as interested.) I just checked my stats and I've been getting a lot of traffic to that blog. I forgot it was pi day until I saw your post.
-
27
Thoughts on the 2012 theory?!
by ZeusZero inwhat are your thoughts on the 2012 theory regarding the end of the world.
we have read recently about the financial crisis being an early sign of this end.
id like to know what you fellow brothers and sisters think of this.
-
-
DT
I think the seven times of Daniel fits 2012 much better than 1914. If the first fulfillment refers to the humiliation of the King of Babylon, why couldn't the "major fulfillment" start with the humiliation of the Kingdom of Babylon in 539 BC? (At least this is a date everyone agrees on.) This fits better than the destruction of the somewhat minor city of Jerusalem, before the first fulfillment even started. Seven times has to include at least one leap month of 30 days. (Something the Watchtower Society seems to have forgotten) This gives us 2,550 days or years. Add that to 539 BC, while remembering there is no zero year, gives us 2012. Like the 1914 prophecy, it is even confirmed by an ancient pyramid building civilisation, and in a much more dramatic way than constantly changing measurements from the inside of a pyramid.
This is all pretty silly, but I don't think it is any more silly than what Charlie Russell came up with. (As far as I know, this is my idea, and the Watchtower Society can't have it.)
-
83
Do not Disassociate, Anull your baptism
by jwfacts ini am now a jedi, so trust me on this.. .
why dis-associate, you are just playing by the wts rules?
how can you dis-associate anyway, you never thought you were baptised as a watchtower society member, you thought your dedication was to god, so why formally disassociate from something you did not formally join?
-
-
DT
"I wonder though, what if one were to write a letter saying that you no longer recognise yourself as a member of the XXXXtown Congregation of Jehovah's witnesses? Would that stop the local body having authority over you? The congregations don't have the same legal resources as the WTBTS. "
Good question. I think it depends on how the Watchtower Society tries to represent itself. They want to be in charge of the local congregations, but they also want to insulate themselves from legal liabilities from the local congregations. I don't think it would make much difference now, but if legal pressures forces them to continue moving away from a hierarchical structure, then maybe we will see the day when we can just resign from a local congregation without the headquarters wanting to make it apply to the whole organisation.
I wrote the headquarters once asking for confirmation of my status after I left. (I just wanted something in writing.) They just referred me to the local congregation. It's almost like they were trying to deny responsibility for any action taken against me.