Posts by yourmomma

4

The Blood Issue Logically and Scripturally

by yourmomma in

lets for the sake of argument say that god views blood sacred and having a blood transfusion would be a sin.

the scriptures teach us that jesus shed blood is a ransom sacrifice that covers all of our sins.

the only unforgivable sin is rejecting christ after accepting him, therefore becoming apostate, correct?

yourmomma

Lets for the sake of argument say that God views blood sacred and having a blood transfusion would be a sin. The scriptures teach us that Jesus shed blood is a ransom sacrifice that covers ALL of our sins. The only unforgivable sin is rejecting Christ after accepting him, therefore becoming apostate, correct? So if that is correct, I am trying to figure out how a blood transfusion is the be all and end all of your faith and relationship with God? Would one not be forgiven based on the ransom sacrifice? If for instance the witnesses viewed fornication in the same light as a blood transfusion, could it be said that if one commits fornication they forever forfeit their everlasting life and standing with god?

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

Response to Frank75: wow, emotional black mail? ok. i kind of covered this in my post last night, however i will do it again as i dont want to be accused of dishonestly avoiding questions. You said "I see nothing other than a direct request for more information from you". In his first 2 posts he did that, however in his third post, after i made an honest attempt to answer his points he made the comments "Many of your statements lead me to think that you have not been involved very deeply in the org.", and "You seem focused on your own personal spiritual views and that whether JW's are a false religion or not is really not that important to you. Maybe if you were more aware of the harm they've caused and continue to cause you would not be so cavalier about the subject." These comments are not making a direct request for more information. Instead of offering a counter argument he is basically saying that I am too blinded by my owne personal spirituality or possibly selfish, and that its not important to me if my religion is false, in addition he makes a general blanket statement that since I disagree with him i must not have been involved deeply in the org. Then after I took issue with those comments, he then insinuates that I am trying to avoid an honest discussion and insinuates that i am a troll. So basically he does those things instead of spelling out exactly WHAT it is about my comments that he found unsatisfactory. Sorry Frank, but I disagree that he was only "directly requesting more information." A great example of a person that is making a direct request for more information and that is keeping the conversation above the belt is "open mind". When my last answer did got give him an answer that he felt was satisfactory he simply made follow up points and asked follow up questions. You honestly are telling me that you dont see a difference there?

In addition, I said that I would not post on this board IF the majority agreed I was being dishonest because if thats the case, how would our conversations be productive? I am not interested in a conversation that doesnt involve people who can show respect for each other, exchange ideas and opinions without stooping to using tactics such as that. In addition, i am not irritated, i am simply pointing out how unfair and low his tactics are. but even if i was irritated, thats going to happen. we are human, and we are discussing some issues that at times can be very emotional for everyone involved. i didnt know being irritated somehow was unacceptable. As far as being giddy, i have no idea what to say about that. Giddy? When was the last time you were giddy? I keep it real and feel what i feel. If you are telling me what I am suppose to feel, im not sure what to say. I feel what I feel. I mean, the term giddy? I guess im giddy in between my 4th and 5th beer. Or when my sports teams win close games at the end. I really dont know. If I am Christs true disciple? is there anyone that can confidently say they are? I mean I try, certainly, but im not going to make a statement that I am. I will know in the end if I was. You seem to believe that I should allow myself to be disrespected. I disagree, if we cant have respect then i dont find the conversation enjoyable. You seem to be holding me to standards that I dont think are dealing with what we are doing. Im just having conversations and sharing opinions here. I am not trying to convert anyone or tell anyone that what I believe is what you should believe. To each his own. You said "So do your duty as a Jehovah's Witness, bear witness to us "with a mild temper and deep respect" and all should go smoothly. Right?" What? Im just a person having a conversation over the internet and responding if people are asking me a question. Im not on a mission to preach or convert anyone on here. Frankly it turns people off. Why cant I just have a conversation without conforming to all these principles that YOU think I should abide by? You an elder? LOL j/k

Response to eclipse: It would make me cringe because its more than likely she is going to be belittled, treated badly, and possibly worse and I know how painful that can be so anytime I see a person about to go through something painful like that, i cringe. Especially if she is under the illusion that they are going to help her and kindly answer her questions in a satisfactory manner.

i agree this is the logical next step, but in my experience its not going to do any good. however, i more than acknowledge that it could be different, my experiences are just that, my experiences, people have all kinds of different experiences so im not saying that its written in stone. I am glad she is aware of the hornets nest she is about to poke, so that means she is not naive. And I agree that we should know the truth about all things, even the bad things so hopefully she will have her eyes opened so she can get her head straight and ease the trouble she may feel. weather that means leaving or staying, that is up to each person. some people simply cannot remain because of this stuff, i understand that. I think what makes me sad is not if someone leaves the org over this stuff, but if they then stop believing in God all together. I think that in the end as Ezekiel 34 brings out, God will care for his lost sheep, I would hate to see the evil of some men, make her no longer believe in God, if she is truly the type of person that wants to believe and could benefit from having a faith.

Response to cognizent decent: I agree with your entire post, its very fair and reasonable. When it comes to people who are disrespectful or not fighting fair, i will make an honest attempt to resolve it, but if I cant, im not going to waste my time. I feel I have thick skin, so I guess we will see. I try to keep it real, and if I think someone is not doing so, im going to call them on it.

Response to Confession: I believe it basically because in my research of the other religions that I did, the witnesses for me had the most reasonable explanation of things. But thats me, everyone is different. When I gave the example of God-Jesus-Anointed, I was doing while making the point that I dont agree with the WT Bible and tract society when they put themselves up there, the anointed and the WTBS are 2 differnt things, one is a corporation. (I know you know this, etc) You are correct to bring out that this scripture does not mention the anointed, however im not sure which Scripture you saw that I quoted. I dont quote alot of scriptures, in fact I bet the majority of people on this board could destroy me in a contest to find what scripture where. I also never claimed to be an expert on the Bible, I know many witnesses do. However I feel that each of us is at a different level spiritually and intellectually. Now, as far as the food at the proper time, you bring up a good point. I dont believe that every single article or book or whatever means food at the proper time. In fact, the Bible does not define what exactly it is. This is a overused term and I have had conversations with many witnesses who will council me that my choice for instance to watch The Matrix is not following the food at the proper time given to us by the F&DS. Now, here is another issue and I am currently researching, for whatever reason the information that is produced for the most part is much more basic then it used to be.

In addition to it being basic, it really seems that there is an unbalanced emphasis on things like entertainment, schooling, pioneering, etc. I remember years ago while sometimes those things were covered there was much more focus on the Bible and different accounts, etc. It made me wonder then why is this the case? I am currently looking into the change that was made, I think it was 2001 or close to that time when the anointed were moved to a different position to "focus on the field ministry" etc. In addition to that, they also changed some things legally as far as how they operate. Is it a coincidence that since this change, the information is different? I dont know, maybe its just me. So you are asking me who is providing food at the proper time, I think that based on the scriptures the anointed are, and frankly from what i just read recently it could even be anointed who are not on the GB. I just read an article about this, i forget the date, im pretty sure it was discussed on here, i will look for it. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please post them. I am currently in the middle of considering alot of different info here on the subject.

Response to Frank75's 2nd post: You have alot of rules, lol. If there is anything else that I have not covered, simply ask me. You have alot of assumptions about how witnesses are, and granted many witnesses fit those assumptions but not all of them. Also, while it may be your opinion that if a person doesnt agree with everything they are not a JW, I dont agree with that.I mean to who, God, or other witnesses? They are not lords over my faith, and frankly I dont have to reveal to them what my personal beliefs are. Thats between me and God. But as I said, to each his own. I think in the end God is going to judge who was what.

Response to Renegade: If thats what you think im doing, im sorry to hear that. im just writing and responding to people asking questions.

Response to Open Mind: Jehovah reads our hearts and judges us perfectly. There are people that have gone through such horrendous things that its simply impossible for them to stay in. Jehovah sees this. I dont think he is an unloving task master that many portray him to be, usually to try to get you to do more service, etc. Ezekiel 34 is a great chapter, i personally think it pertains to this. But thats just me. As far as keeping people in, im talking about the lack of help many people who are suffering get. Alot of people get so disgruntled because things are so bad that they lose their faith in God all together. So by keeping in, it can mean keeping them in their relationship with God. I think alot of people also get pissed off at God for this stuff. Loyalty to the org, or salvation through the org seems to be something said more recently. Anyone who knows even has a basic understanding of the Bible knows this is simply incorrect. I think that we are going to see some interesting times in the next few years.

On your second point, you are correct. Again, with anything i am writing, im just expressing my opinion, if you can show me a point like that, i have no problem accepting that. I would still say however that they dont seem to be as bad as they once were. I mean they really used to give it to people. But overall I agree with your point. The bottom line is that Jehovah will judge, if someone wants to be an idiot during Armageddon and protest someone that Jehovah's allows in, then they deserve to get rolled. LOL, i bet that will happen too. Some strict nut in your hall who has judged you all these years will see you make it and be like "What the hell?!?! YOU MADE IT?!?! Forget this, im out of here!" LOL!! "Jehovah, you let her in? But she listens to rap music and has a 3rd piercing!"

85

So is it Evolution or Creation

by Punk in

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5521410965822202656 take a look

yourmomma

wow Gopher, your comments echo what i have thought for years. I thought that either God had creative days as one possibility, or he kind of like had a package with everything in it, and threw it out there in the darkness and it exploded (big bang) and everything evolved like that. both scenarios support a creator which i think is the bottom line. people argue about the details to the death, i wasent there so im not going to get into that debate. i think that there are facts that show that there has to be a creator, but also there are facts that show some kinds of evolution. so the truth of the matter is probably somewhere in between. maybe this stance will make me an ememy of both evolutionists and intelligent design advocates. lol

8

Need your help

by Burger Time in

hey guys i made a new blog spot called "new light".

i am going to be doing little essays on jw's and the bible.

nothing new of course and on many other websites, but i kind of want to try my hand at writing.

yourmomma

I found your post about apostates excellent and accurate. the word apostate is so overused and misapplied among JW's. People are going even as so far to say that if you disagree with the society on a matter, then you are an apostate. or, if you have been wronged in some way and are talking about it, and in turn that talk is critical, even rightfully so, you are labeled an apostate. hell, at a meeting about a year ago, a brother gave a comment that an apostate is one who falls away, like people that stop going to meetings. keep up the good work.

115

My Life as a 'Famous' Jehovah's Witness

by united states of nothing in

just let me start out by saying i am unable to give certain details of my life as i have learned very quickly this can cause a lot of problems.

i was born into the 'truth' as my mother had been studying with a few sisters on and off at a local congregation.

my father was never a jw and came in and out of my life for many years..to this day i do not give him much time.

yourmomma

,font color=black>i can attest to what Gopher has said. I have had an enjoyable time here so far and have had only 1 run in with a person i felt was not "fighting fair".

I have seen some newbies run off, however, and of course i havent read everyone, but the ones that I have read, I will say much of the time the newbie that gets run off, does what alot of witnesses do and that is act like they have the right way and either disrespect others or act somewhat haughty because of what they believe. (Is that not the greatest run on sentence you have ever read? Ship the run on sentence championship to me!)

Now, this guy in this thread im not sure what happened. I think there were some posts that could penetrate thin skin, but i didnt see anything to bad. Maybe he left for another reason, perhaps he told a friend about this place and then gave him an apostate rant.

I thought that I would be run off, but I havent, and I think its because once a person acts like their beliefs are superior its turns people off. And frankly, witnesses are the last people that should act superior, and I think that it pisses people off because 1. they have been hurt by the witnesses, and 2. they know things and can see the severe problems.

anyway, im not saying i wont get run off ever, but so far so good.

i have no problem with a person if they disagree with me, it doesnt make me look at them differently, sadly, not alot of people can do that especially witnesses.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

The people have spoken. As I said in my post, I wasent going to leave over Gregor, however if everyone agreed that I was not being honest, then it would be pointless to stay. I think that if a group of people all agree on a matter its something one must consider. So if you would all agree that i am being dishonest and avoiding questions when I think that I am doing my best to be honest, then I am wasting everyones time. Based on your posts, that is not the case. So im not leaving. I dont want you to think I was pissed off at him, if I came off like that, then that was not my intention. I was more intellectually outraged by his statements. It is 2am so i am going to bed, however I will be happy to address each persons post tomorrow, as I have been. And if I miss anyone, just point it out and I will go back. I am bound to miss some of them, however I would rather be given a chance to address it rather then people think I am avoiding it because I am dishonest.

Also, to Open Mind, my response to your post about the preaching work can be found on page #3 of this thread, its post #12 middle of the page after "Response to Open Mind". If you do not see it, let me know and I will copy and paste it. If that response is lacking what you consider a valid response then let me know what parts of it you object to or think is not addressing your post. Its possible you missed it, I think I may add some color from now on to separate and make it easier to read. I think its certainly a valid point that I lack skills at good formatting, and im open to any suggestions. If my posts are long, im sorry, but I just write what I feel from the heart and mind.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

Hold on, trying to avoid an honest discussion?

wow.

your posts speak for themselves. if anyone here thinks i am trying to avoid an honest discussion then that is a joke.

you sir, are the first person i have come across so far that is not keeping it real.

conversations with a person who is not keeping it real is a waste of time. you cant come up with a better retort than to question my honesty or make blanket, presumptious statements about what i must think and what kind of person i am because i disgree with you? thats a severe lack of discussion skills and common respect on your part.

im not going to leave the board however, because to do that for one person is not reasonable. but i cant continue to have a discussion with a person that is going to tell me i am avoiding an honest discussion when i am sitting here sometimes taking an hour to write out a well thought out post to answer questions in the most honest way i can, well frankly that is a joke.

if there is anyone else here that agrees with Gregor, please post, so I will know to stop posting. i dont want to waste my time nor yours.

a person that cannot have a conversation without stooping to the level Gregor has is where i draw the line.

there are other people that i have had discussions with that we have so far disagreed, however they simply raise what they feel are valid points, and we continue to exchange and compare thoughts and ideas without going below the belt and questioning each others "honesty"

however i want to know if others feel they way gregor does. if thats the case, let me know, and i can move on. that would be a shame because so far i am finding this enjoyable.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

Response to gregor: "I agree if the doctrine we are talking about is weather or not Jesus is God's son, or if Jehovah uses the org, etc. But if its a matter of lets weather or not I have to agree with the suggestions on dress and grooming after the convention then I disagree. If I stated to the org that I think its possible that others will not die because Jehovah reads all hearts, I am not buying that I would be DF'd. If I said "hey, GB, you are wrong, how can you be so judgemental!" then I see how I would, but thats not how I am. I have respect and humilty and even if its my opinion, I certainly dont think its written in stone/ However, if like I said you have letters or some sort of proof to prove me wrong, im all for it.

As far as being involved in the org, I was a MS, and Pioneer and have had close relationships with PO's and Do's. I doubt there are many things I have not been part of or have not seen. Also, im not sure you can make the comments that you made in the 2nd part of your post without knowing me, can you? I mean, how do you know what I know? I have read this forum for years and I am up to date on all of the issues. In addition, I have seen countless friends harmed by unqualified elders or other witnesses in the congregation. In addition, to make the statement that weather or not JW's are a false religion is not important to me, is another commment that I dont feel is proper. Why do you say this, because I disagree with you? Im cavalier about the subject? Why because I disagree with you? Glad you are so comfortable judging what I think and feel because of my opinion. How do you know what I think about matters or how important these things are? You sound like the strict dubs that make comments similar to yours like "based on your statements you must not have a deep relationship with Jehovah" or "I guess Jehovah's requirements are not that important to you because of your opinion on this or that matter" or "If you knew how important meeting attendance was to Jehovah you would not have such a cavalier attitude."

Frankly, I have had a great discussion here, however your last post is the first that is degenerated into judgmental, presumptuous, and borderline disresectful comments directed at me all based on what? My opinion.

Jeez, you have alot in common with the strict JW's at my hall, you just have different beliefs, but your tactics are the same.

Sorry if my post is coming off irritated, but I think you are out of line.

Hopefully the others who's conversations I have enjoyed will not follow the same path.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

Response to confession: Im not sure I agree when you say that I "distinguish yourself as a JW who does not recognize the Society as being what they want to be recognized as." My current stance is that I believe that Jehovah uses the organization to accomplish the preaching work and give us food at the proper time. However, I dont believe that every word that comes from them is straight from Jehovah's mouth and that I do not have to agree with everything that is printed. You seem to equate a disagreement with anything the WT says as a rejection of the fact that they are used by God. Correct? If thats, so i respect your opinion, however I dont agree.

Now, as to the 2nd part, I must correct you on something. I have been greatly harmed by them. I have not really said that, so I understand why you think that, but its not the case. I have been greatly harmed, my family has been greatly harmed and my friends have been greatly harmed. To make a long story short, I lost my position (MS), most of my friends, and have been marked because I stood up for what I thought was right. When I encountered politics among the body, I felt as though it was something Jehovah hates, and I stoop up against it and was destroyed over my stand. I dont regret it.

I am still associating with them because I believe God is currently using them. Not as much as they may think, lol, but using them none the less. As far as why would I stay with all of the bad things going on, frankly if you look down through history, people that were used by Jehovah have always had member who were doing horrific things to each other in the name of God. Some of the most disgraceful behavior in the Bible is done among God's people. Now, granted, this is never talked about or written about, however with a deep study of the Scriptures, you can see it clearly. In the end we do all have to stand before Jehovah, and frankly the organization will likely be gone then. When you look at the Scriptures it goes God-Jesus-Anointed, not God-Jesus-WT Bible & Tract Society INC. That is merely a tool used by God. All these people that think they serve Jehovah but in reality serve the Watchtower, what are they going to do when the system crashes and the WT cant operate?

Response to Sun Spot: I have looked through all of my posts and have not found the quote you are talking about. Did you make a mistake? What I said exactly was " i missed the memo that made suggestions from the society law." That is much "different than all JWs must accept whatever doctrines and policies currently teach". Im happy to discuss this however we need to clarify what exactly you are talking about.

Response to Open Mind: Im not one to judge who is an apostate. People who are discussing their being hurt and real problems are not apostates in my book. I know there are some here, but I dont discriminate who I talk to. From my first day picking up the Bible I have always felt that considering both sides of the argument is the only way we find our truth, whats hilarious about this is that if you told your average witness this, they would freak out, but some of the most prominent speakers who have had their stories in the WT have said exactly that.

Your illustration shows the lack of logic in the thinking that only JW's are saved. This is something that the society has backed away from. I mean alot of witnesses still think this, but the bottom line is NO ONE has the right to judge who is going to make it, thats up to God. Now, i cant speculate at what is going to happen, I have no idea, only God knows. All I know is Jehovah is perfect in justice. Thats the bottom line, he cannot make a mistake in judgment. And when you look at how Jesus treated people when he was on earth and how loving and kind and understanding he was, that tells you how Jehovah is. Now, make no mistake, i will have fear on that day out of awe of Jehovah, and of course its human nature to wonder if he will be happy with you, but I just think how Jesus treated the people who approached him that were fearful. He was very kind and calming and loving. Thats how I picture Jehovah is going to be for people who truly and honestly tried their best to serve him. And to everyone else, frankly, based on what I have read, I just dont see how Jehovah is not going to give them a chance to serve him. I mean, what about the tribal people who cant speak a known language, running around naked and eating rats who have no idea what a book is. They are not going to be given a chance? If not, thats not fair, and Jehovah is perfectly fair.

You make a valid point about the preaching work. I think part of that is that they are trying to motivate people. Sometimes they do it out of fear and guilt, I dont agree with that. But thats the tactic they use, we will see if Jehovah is pleased with that. I dont think its right. Personally I look to the Bible for the examples of the work and in addition to telling people about God and his kingdom, Jesus was also helping people. I think that helping the widows and orphans is just as important, as well as, and here is a major point, KEEPING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY IN. I mean wow, these things are just not done. I have seen it done, I think I was lucky the first 5 years I was a witness I saw wonderful things in regards to this, so I now it exists, its just not common, at least in my experience. Its almost like if a brother or sister is having trouble, they get rid of them because they are considered a problem. But frankly, Ezekiel, I think chapter 34 is discussing that, and people who are guilty of that are in for a surprise. I personally with my ministry focus on helping people, anyone. This is something I am working on, because I need to adjust my thinking that while I think door to door is fine, there are other aspects of it that Jehovah wants and part of that is helping the widows and orphans. I think that if you or your wife is finding a point made from the platform, in a magazine, or made by another person troubling , you can look to the Scriptures for an example and see if it matches what they are saying. The Bible is a nice litmus test because at least where I am, there is alot of unchecked speach at meetings, people saying stuff that is just not correct and no one tells them. About a year ago a young brother who was a servant made the comment that apostasy is people who fall away, like fall away meaning missing meetings, etc. lol!

Response to moshe: Would the elders allow someone to get baptized with this opinion? I think it depends on how its expressed, what year it was expressed and mainly what kind of elders they are. Are they liberal, conservative? Are they friends with the person getting baptized, or is it a person who is "in" so to speak? An absolute no? I dont think so, no more times than yes? Yes.

Wow, lol your good. I have already DA'd myself? I dont think so. You seem to think that if i sent a letter written tactfully and respectfully about my beliefs, they would DF me? I dont agree, however if you have any letters sent back and forth from other people, I'll be happy to consider them.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

Response to Confession: I think that the articles you are quoting is proving something I said earlier and that is the society has backed itself into a corner with all of the trash talk that they have done to other religions. Now, I guess I can also tie this into moshe's post as well. I feel that the subject of being accountable for another man's sins inside the religion is something to be aware of. However at this point I do not agree with the society in that all people of other religions will be destroyed because of what that religion has done. Jehovah is going to read the heart condition of each person. It does not make sense that he is going to resurrect millions of unrighteous people and give them all a chance, and at the same time not give other people a fair chance. I think its clear that the society has egg on its face based on its printed condemnation of other religions, so if you are telling me to change my thoughts because of something that is printed in the articles that i disagree with, I simply dont agree with that. Again, if you believe that I am going to be destroyed regardless of my heart condition because of the actions by men inside the WT, well frankly, that kind of God is no different than what the watchtower witnesses believe in. A ruthless, unfair, unloving, vengeful, God who is looking for any reason to kill me. Sorry, I cant buy that. Will Jehovah judge his own house? Yes, if I am going to be responsible for other peoples mistakes, then frankly that is a burden to heavy to carry. Thats simple unfair, and I dont believe that Jehovah is like that. Im tired of people telling me that Jehovah is going to kill me for a long laundry list of things. So i guess I can just add moshe's statement to the list of things, so i guess here under reason #63 why I am going to be killed by Jehovah, right under missing meetings and above watching rated r movies, I will put "paying for the sins of others in the society."