i just called wbts public information office.
718 560-5619.. i had a hard time not busting out laughing........ i asked them, "is this armeggedon?".
the girl who answered the phone laughed.
RunningMan,
That's correct. The great tribulation got moved to the very end, near Armageddon. Also the "judgment, dividing mankind into sheep and goats" also has been moved to the time of the great tribulation. So, not much (really) is happening right now, in reference to the time of the end.
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
it has been almost one year since the members of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses resigned as directors of the legal corporations.
the expressed reason for this change was printed as a special announcement in the january 15, 2001 watchtower, page 31:.
this decision is beneficial indeed.
Hello NYTELCOM,
Your post was interesting, but leaves a question or two unanswered. You seem to have missed the gist of Stealth's post, which was that the organization through the pages of the Watchtower has imposed many man-made rules to burden the rank-and-file members of JW's.
So, in regards to your upcoming "special day" and "KM School for Ministerial Servants"....
Which is more likely to apply?
Matthew 11:29, 30:
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me... and you will find refreshment for your souls. For my yoke is kindly and my load is light. (emphasis mine)Or this statement by Jesus regarding the Pharisees (from Matthew 23:4):
They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. (emphasis mine)
I guess in your viewpoint, everything dished out by the WT Society will be a light load and beneficial for people. The mere existence of this forum proves otherwise! (People do suffer due to the whims of the Brooklyn bosses.)
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
we've all heard the bibles' explanation of how the rainbow first appeared.
now i not an expert in science but i believe rainbows have occured every since since light and moisture in the air have existed.. that would be way before the alledged global flood.. my dictionary describes a rainbow asan arch of prismatic colors found in the sky oposite the sun and caused by refraction, reflection and dispersion of light in raindrops.. my dictionary describes rain this way the condensed vapor.
of the atmosphere falling in drops.. here's watchtowers definition of rain from the insite book page 728,. a vital part of the cycle by which water that rises into the atmosphereb as vapor from land and water surface of the globe and falls to the ground.....at an early point in the history of the preparation of the earth "god had not made it rain upon the earth "but" a mist would go up from the earth and it watered the entire surface of the ground.gen2:5,6;1:9-13. hmm,sounds like rain to me.. [b]ranchette
I'm totally "WITH" expatbrit, hey expie- has your membership in the "Flat Earth Society" expired yet? See you at the next F.E.S. meeting, okay?
BTW, is it also a "rainbow myth" that at the end of every rainbow, there is a pot of gold?
OK, sing it to me, Kermit:
The Rainbow Connection - By: Paul Williams
___________________________________________________________
Why are there so many songs about rainbows,
And what's on the other side?
Rainbows are visions, but only illusions,
And rainbows have nothing to hide.
So we've been told and some choose to believe it,
I know they're wrong, wait and see.
Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection,
The lovers, the dreamers and me.
Who said that every wish would be heard and answered,
When wished on the morning star?
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it,
And look what it's done so far.
What's so amazing that keeps us stargazing
And what do we think we might see?
Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection,
The lovers, the dreamers, and me.
All of us under its spell,
We know that it's probably magic ............
Have you been half asleep? And have you heard voices?
I've heard them calling my name.
Is this the sweet sound that calls the young sailors?
The voice might be one and the same.
I've heard it too many times to ignore it,
It's something that I'm s'posed to be
Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection,
The lovers, the dreamers, and me
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
last night the husband and i went out to dinner and a nightclub with the few remaining jw friends that we have, which are not many.
we laughed and drank (jw's know where to find the best booze) and had a good time.
this morning, i told the husband that maybe we should make an appearance at the kh on sundays only, so that we can hang onto the few remaining friends that we have.
I decided to check out what's new on the board. Thank you, one and all, because now I know that I do not want to spend even 2 hours of my life sitting in a KH.
TB, on behalf of the rest of the board, you're welcome!! Isn't this group of people the greatest? They've helped me 'get past' the Borg, and provided company during what would have been lonely times. And aren't Sunday mornings better, without having to submit to the 'carrot and stick' lectures and the promises that 'the end is just around the corner', yadda, yadda?
I know that our friendship with the witnesses we were out with last night will come to an end shortly.
If so, it is THEIR loss! At such a point, we need to move on to association with new friends and/or family who love us UNCONDITIONALLY, with no strings attached. If your current JW friends can't provide that, then are they REALLY your friends?
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
i seriously ask this question in light of some ridiculous experiences i have had in recent times.
a while back,a freind of mine purchased a new home.
a housewarming party was planned for her.
Wow, this is turning into MTV Celebrity Death Match! If this had been going on over H2o, both of your last posts would be toast! Probably even mine. Heck, I'm just reacting out of a bit of emotion myself and probably should shut up..... But I just can't resist...
NYTELCOM,
Nice ad hominem attack on LDH, about possibly being fat! Way to stick to the issues, my man!
LISA,
Nice comeback. I loved 'egregious' ... and your tongue-in-cheek ad hominem comeback, "are you black"?
C'mon everybody, you're making me laugh so hard, I'm not getting any work done at the office. Heck, reading this board could be my full time job, but it sure doesn't pay much!!!
By the way, who started this thread and what was it about?
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
i believe i have set the wheels in motion for what i believe will lead to my disfellowshiping.
i have been inactive since 1987 and still getting along with the witnesses (invited to gatherings etc.
) but something came up that finally push my buttons just enough to make me explode.
Wiz,
I know you're trying to answer multiple people/multiple posts and it can get a little hectic. But PLEASE don't make the mistake of painting everyone in here with the same brush. There is no real conformmity expected here, only that people be REAL about their feelings and present a reasonable argument for them. I see wide diversity of opinions among posters here, and I find that stimulating. I include your views among that 'welcome' diversity. JW's may have a 'persecution complex' to some extent, I would expect better from you because you've been absent from their meetings for 2 years, you said. I'm not here to attack you. I'm going after IDEAS here.
You actually attacked me by using a generality, "throw the Bible out the window if you want...". I'm not interested in throwing the Bible out the window, Wiz. What I am objecting to is what I perceive to be a misapplication of certain scriptures to support an unjust and unloving practice, and that is the shunning of those who are weak or have doubts. Many who are shunned did not wish it to be so. They didn't disassociate themselves. Shunning is unnatural and hurtful. If you read the other posts on this thread, can't you FEEL the hurt this practice is inflicting? It inflicts 'collateral damage' as well onto grandchildren and onto innocent spouses. Try as you can, the WAY and the EXTENT that the WTS imposes shunning is beyond loving, beyond reasonable, and goes beyond Scripture. No, I don't want to throw out the Bible. I just want it to be reasonably applied.
BTW, I'm sure glad Dan Sydlik gives lip service about "kindness" to DF'd people. But that kindness is rare. Most of the ordinary JW's are motivated by FEAR to steer far clear of any DF'd or DA'd individual, no matter what the circumstance may be. This FEAR imposes a certain control over the congregation, which is as the WTS wishes it to be. This is unloving. Why? Read 1 John 4:18. "There is no fear in love. Perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. He that is under fear has not been made perfect in love." The WTS rule on shunning enforces FEAR and curtails LOVE. How Christian is that? I guess you can only know if you or someone you care about deeply has been the victim of this policy. Again, try to read the posts of people who have been its victims, feel their sadness and anguish. Jesus Christ feels it, as he looks down from his throne, I am quite sure!
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
recently i had the opportunity to go to the museum of tolerance in los angeles.
one thing stuck in my mind, the purple triangles.
i have not been in a kh for over 3 years.
Dungbeetle,
I visited the Holocaust museum three summers ago with my family, and it was really hard to take!
I had always wondered what brought such wrath upon the JW's during the Nazi regime. We had been sold the idea that it was the Witnesses' "fearlessness" in exposing the false hopes held out by the major religions and governments. But this post helps us to see that it was really the irritating and hateful METHOD that the JW's were trained by their Governing Body (under Joseph Rutherford) to employ, that brought all this needless suffering and persecution.
Thanks, this was very thought provoking.
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
i believe i have set the wheels in motion for what i believe will lead to my disfellowshiping.
i have been inactive since 1987 and still getting along with the witnesses (invited to gatherings etc.
) but something came up that finally push my buttons just enough to make me explode.
Wiz,
You're in denial. You seem to want to deny some very simple ideas and definitions in your response. (example, you denied that "wicked" and "bad" necessarily equate to evil. Of course, such denial is only made for argument's sake, it seems.) The JW form of shunning is harsh, unloving, and goes against what is natural.
The scriptures I quoted about "removing the WICKED one" --- I was quoting the JW's who were quoting the Bible. JW's enforce the words in their literature as much or more than the words of the Bible, I'm sure you'd even agree. They agree with this scripture above, sice they use it as proof that what they do is right. So in essesnce it IS the JW's who themselves say that disfellowshipped ones (and by implication disassociated ones) are WICKED. They quote scriptures that imply that, I am quoting them quoting those scriptures.
And what else can WICKED and BAD mean but EVIL? Let's not split hairs here.
Finally, about what Christ said, that HE would cause a division. It's really up to HIM to do the dividing. The JW's have gone beyond what Jesus himself said, "let such a one (a non-repentant sinner) be to you as a tax collector and as a man of the nations". Did he say TREAT THE WRONGDOER WORSE than those of the nations? No.
Really what JW's do in their disfellowshipping has its roots more in ancient Hebrew religion than it does in Christianity. By their mode of disfellowshipping, it's the moral equivalent of taking an individual and stoning them to death outside the city gate. The Watchtower has even made that comparison, even lamenting the fact that they cannot currently kill such wrongdoers because it would not be lawful in today's world!
How different than Christianity, that treats each individual with compassion down to the very end. Instead of helping such individuals with a long term program of sheperding (or pastoral care, as some churches call it) JW's kick the person to the curb. They've decided he's unworthy of any association and also unworthy of help, even if he brought the case to the attention of the elders in the first place! Even that is not enough, to some elder judges, to show that there is some room for mercy.
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
i believe i have set the wheels in motion for what i believe will lead to my disfellowshiping.
i have been inactive since 1987 and still getting along with the witnesses (invited to gatherings etc.
) but something came up that finally push my buttons just enough to make me explode.
Babykins,
You are so right, shunning "breaks down families". It is an evil ploy by the organization to set people against each other, to use pressure to keep their people loyal.
I am SO sorry to hear of your breakdown. This thing with the parents is so hard to face. (As a parent, I could never cruelly shun a child....that is so unnnatural!) Since my parents are in their 60's, I'm assuming they're going to stay JW's for the long term. In other words, I've lost them! It's hard to face up to it, but I've had to, to be able to cope and move on to other things in my life.
I have a daughter who's turning 3 in December. I have NO idea what to tell her when she comes to an age of understanding. Even now she asks about her grandparents.
Not that this post gave you any answers, except others are facing some similar, well, "stuff". [>:(]
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
i seriously ask this question in light of some ridiculous experiences i have had in recent times.
a while back,a freind of mine purchased a new home.
a housewarming party was planned for her.
Nytelcom,
Then why all the articles about "Beware of Independent Thinking"? Seems like the WTS is teaching such thinking is a snare. Of course, to me it seems like they just want to keep the rank-and-file JW's strictly in line. Too many questions, and the elders will come and ask you about your loyalty to the 'organization'. Or if you try to leave quietly, your absence will be noticed, and again you'll get a shepherding call. If it's determined your attitude is out of line with the organization, they could slap a DA or a DF on you if you're of no particular use to the congregation any longer.
I'm not making any of this up. This is an amalgam of several real-life experiences.
GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
