Gopher

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Posts by Gopher

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  43

  Disciplinary Actions

  by Cold Steel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?

  an advocate?.

  why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?

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  Gopher

  Jesus' counsel to "view others as 'a man of the nations and a tax collector'" does not necessarily correlate to what the JW's do.

  The whole context (centered on Matt. 18:15-17) is about a personal wrong done toward an individual, not the church or congregation. Jesus said that "you" as the wronged individual can treat the person as a man of the nations. It doesn't mention a congregation sanction here.
  
  Paul specifically talked about how a wrongdoer was to be treated in 1 Corinthinans. Then later, he wrote at 2 Corinthians 2:6 that the "rebuke of the majority" was sufficient to straighten out matters and now it was time to encourage him. Notice the word 'majority'. No top-down order was implied where the elders decided that a man should be treated differently. A 'majority' participated in the rebuke, a minority may not have. No whole-organization shunning is implied here.

  Also Paul wrote that those who are mature have, by use, their perceptive powers trained to distinguish right from wrong. So Paul was saying that mature Christians could discern who good associates are and who they may need to steer clear of.
  
  So again, I say that the top-down decision from 'on high' (the elders or the organization) is particular to the way the Watchtower Society wants to run things and is not how things were done (at least in the time of the early Corinthians).
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  43

  Disciplinary Actions

  by Cold Steel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?

  an advocate?.

  why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Gopher

  Thedog1, you said:

  those who become Witnesses agree to play by the rules as set down in the scriptures

  Not all who get baptized are fully aware of how "the rules" might be applied. If they were converted as adults, when baptized they were very likely still in that honeymoon period where it appears to them the organization can do no wrong. If they were baptized as children (perhaps as young as 8 or 9) - then they really don't know what they're getting into. (It's a side subject, but even Jesus didn't get baptized until age 30. If baptism is truly the most important decision one can make in one's life, and one is prepared to make such a decision at age 9, then perhaps we should encourage JW kids to also get married around that age as marriage is only the second-most important decision in a JW's life.)
  
  I also have my doubts about 'in the scriptures'. The relationship between what the scriptures say about dealing with wrongdoers and the judicial committee process laid down by the Watchower Society is the same as a so-called historical movie that is 'based on real events' has to the actual (often less-exciting) actual story. The entire WTS process of the private 3-man committee and the announcement from the stage is a set of man-made rules.
  
  The more accurate way to phrase things would have been "play by the Watchtower Society's rules, some of which are taken from the Bible".
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  12

  The Foolish 'Two Witness" Concept

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems, if i am interpreting the documents correctly, that many in the organization might reject good forensic evidence of a crime just because there aren't two or more (human) witnesses to back it up.. a quick look at the watchtower concordance reveals that all sorts of things can act as a 'witness' - such as a pile of rocks.. in john, jesus claimed that 'his works' acted as a witness.. actually, forensic evidence can offer more accurate 'testimony' than humans and is often superior.

  in any case, this 'two witness' stuff is rubbish, even from a biblical point of view.

  things can be a witness.. .

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  Gopher

  
  
  Eyeuse2:

  Don't you know that the book of Revelation is symbolic, and that the two olive trees and lampstands don't mean anything until the Watchtower Society says what they mean? They could be groups of people, don't you know?
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  43

  Disciplinary Actions

  by Cold Steel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?

  an advocate?.

  why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Gopher

  Adjustments -- this is exactly how I feel about it, when you said this about the basis for elders' judgment:

  Did the person not cry or cry enough, or get on their knees and beg enough to another imperfcet human being, so then they are deemed not repentant???

  I am not a hugely emotional person. I tried to remain calm in the face of exaggerated and false claims against me. Perhaps the elders took that as a "do not care" spirit because one of them even asked me "do you still want to be a JW?" I said yes (which is how I felt at the time), but again my failure to appear repentant somehow (because I didn't break down and beg or cry) probably weighed against me.
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  8

  Blame it on the Boogy!!!

  by quellycatface in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  was chatting to one of my brainy colleagues at work and telling him a bit about my jw exit etc...... he asked a few questions and then we got onto singing for some reason.

  he said that having music, singing or even chanting at religous gatherings makes the brain for "receptive" to suggestions and indoctrination.

  wtf, i said!!!

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  Gopher

  Xanthippe,

  SO true. I've been out 13 years and still remember a lot of the songs from the 1984 songbook. I suppose because I played piano at the Kingdom Hall for over 10 years that burned the songs even deeper into my subconscious.

  A lot of the songs were about "Christian loyalty" (i.e. not questioning the organization) or preaching or accepting 'new light'. In other religions I think the hymns are more about Jesus or about someday going to heaven, not to further inculcate cult-like thoughts and actions.
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  43

  Disciplinary Actions

  by Cold Steel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?

  an advocate?.

  why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Gopher

  Thedog1, while I appreciate that you are one of the elders who applies mercy when possible, I have seen some elder bodies carry out their duties with a certain vengeance. Don't know why, but that's exactly what happened to me. I was disfellowshipped on very flimsy false accusations, and don't know where they got their "two witnesses" from. (The accusation against me was some nebulous charge of "lying", not apostasy or fornication or smoking or any clear incident.)
  
  So maybe I carry that impression of harshness in certain elder bodies with me, but I am sure I am not alone in this.
• 
  8

  Blame it on the Boogy!!!

  by quellycatface in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  was chatting to one of my brainy colleagues at work and telling him a bit about my jw exit etc...... he asked a few questions and then we got onto singing for some reason.

  he said that having music, singing or even chanting at religous gatherings makes the brain for "receptive" to suggestions and indoctrination.

  wtf, i said!!!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Gopher

  Anyone remember "Firm and Determined"? When I was young we were singing that song and a friend whispered to me "Just like we used to sing at the Gestapo!"

  That song is "Forward You Witnesses!" It's ironic that your friend associated the song with the Gestapo. The song was written by JW Erich Frost in 1942 [during World War II] inside Sachsenhausen concentration camp near Berlin.
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  5

  Harris Poll, American's belief in God, Heaven and miracles declines

  by LisaRose in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.harrisinteractive.com/newsroom/harrispolls/tabid/447/ctl/readcustom%20default/mid/1508/articleid/1353/default.aspx.

  interesting article.

  discuss.

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  Gopher

  According to things I've read, the 9/11/2001 terror attack reminded or informed many people of the dangers of religion, which can be taken too far. The Abrahamic religions tend to be exclusionary -- those who don't believe in their particular flavor can just go to hell (or something like that).
  
  It seems to me that more people who previously felt they had to hide their secularism/skepticism feel more open about coming out as skeptics. Also, atheists have had some outspoken speakers and writers who have made a very reasonable case for skepticism.
  
  Religions will need to adapt to a changing society or become less and less relevant - not only the Witnesses. Pope Francis is putting a much more reasonable face on Catholicism. It is probably beyond his power to reform the myriad of things that are wrong and unreasonable about the worldwide church, but at least he's toning down the divisive rhetoric and trying to attract flies with "honey" rather than the vinegar of certain predecessors of his.
• 
  12

  The Foolish 'Two Witness" Concept

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems, if i am interpreting the documents correctly, that many in the organization might reject good forensic evidence of a crime just because there aren't two or more (human) witnesses to back it up.. a quick look at the watchtower concordance reveals that all sorts of things can act as a 'witness' - such as a pile of rocks.. in john, jesus claimed that 'his works' acted as a witness.. actually, forensic evidence can offer more accurate 'testimony' than humans and is often superior.

  in any case, this 'two witness' stuff is rubbish, even from a biblical point of view.

  things can be a witness.. .

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Gopher

  Here's an interesting thread that discusses the idea that a rape kit could be a second 'witness'.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/95411/1/Rape-two-witnesses-DNA-and-rape-kit#.UrPQKE2A2AU

  However because the Watchtower tends to discourage reporting sexual crimes to the proper authorities, the percentage of JW women who would get a rape kit when attacked by a fellow Watchtower-believer is probably lower than average.
• 
  43

  Disciplinary Actions

  by Cold Steel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?

  an advocate?.

  why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Gopher

  what would the response be if you wanted representation? An advocate?

  They wouldn't allow that. It's the accused JW all alone facing the star chamber. If anyone brought in a 3rd party, the elders would probably halt the proceedings right then and there.

  have you ever known of a decision to be reversed?

  Yes I did, one time back in the early 90's in the congregation I was in. It involved a young JW girl just out of high school. I knew her family and heard of the reversal (don't know if I was meant to find it out).
  
  However I would find the appeals process to be daunting. 3-against-1 in a judicial committee seemed hard enough. Somehow it seemed that in the case of an appeal, it'd be 6-against-1. Most often it's just 3 more guys who may not want to make the first 3 look bad.

  if a person goes into a disciplinary court, if that person is humbly repentant, is that normally enough to get him/her off the hook? Or in many times has the decision already been made?

  I heard that you cannot get disfellowshipped for the "sin" itself. It's a person's attitude that would tilt the decision for or against disfellowshipping.

  HOWEVER...I also heard that if a certain disapproved action became known and the congregation would look flimsy if they didn't take action, that the decision was pretty much made ahead of time. In one case in a smaller Minnesota city, I heard of a circuit overseer who came into town, and on learning of a certain notorious thing done by a JW guy in his 20's, overruled the local congregation and told them to disfellowship the guy.
  
  To me, the politics surrounding disfellowshipping in the JW environment are quite strong. If a person is not well-liked or in the right family in the congregation, the odds are against them in a judicial meeting almost from the start.
  
  I know that there are some elders who really tried to be more fair or compassionate, but it seems that very often the strong-willed disciplinarians had the final say in a lot of things in the congegations that they believe they ruled.