Gopher

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Posts by Gopher

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  18

  Luke 16:22-23? Explain this to me!

  by tabande1 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  hello people, i would like to know the take the jw's have on this bit of scripture taken from the kjv of luke 16; 22-23..... 22 and it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into abraham's bosom: the rich man also died and was buried;.

  23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth abraham afar off, and lazarus in his bosom.. will someone tell me the spill on this piece of scripture?

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  Gopher

  Here's the WT Society's take on these verses, from the book "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth", published in 1982.

  *** pe 88-9 9 What Kind of Place Is Hell? ***
  What, then, did Jesus mean when he said in one of his illustrations: “The beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom”? (Luke 16:19-31, King James Version) Since, as we have seen, Hades refers to mankind’s grave, and not to a place of torment, it is plain that Jesus was here telling an illustration or a story. As further evidence that this is not a literal account but is an illustration, consider this: Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that such a real conversation could be carried on? Moreover, if the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger? What, then, was Jesus illustrating?
  20 The rich man in the illustration stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God’s Son. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they thus came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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  14

  can coc plant that seed of doubt

  by jerome in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i would like to ask ew-jws jw a question.

  when you read the book crisis of conscience how instrumental was that book in getting you to leave the organisation.. i have a gf who is an active jw.... i by the way am wordly.

  this religion thing is putting strain on our relationship.. she condems me for obtaining information about the watchtower from apostates or just about anyone who has something yo say about the org.

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  Gopher

  This book made all the difference in the world for me. It documented clearly why God is not behind the WT Society.

  However, I had to be ready to read it... Certain life events had to happen to plant some doubts in my mind before I would even dare to order and read COC.

  4 years ago, I would have rejected this book outright.

  I am afraid your girlfriend may be locked in "reject everything that reasons" mode, and there may not be any way to get her out of it. Sorry, just my truthful opinion.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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  9

  Hospital Stay

  by QUEENIE in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello everyone: came home yesterday and what a relief on both sides involved..6 days total due to diabetic blisters that got infective real bad and i tore myself away from my webtv to spend the last 6 days at a local hospital trying to clear it up hooked up to an iv pumping antibiotics in my veins 24/7...now i am home for home cookin -- hospitals do not cook to my tastebuds..among other things and also back to my webtv..(((((hugs to all))))

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  Gopher

  Queenie,

  Very glad to have you back! Take care of yourself, we want you around for a while....

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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  118

  Average age of apostates survey.

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i thought it might be a good idea to find out at what age or after how long we descided to leave the watchtower.. prehaps we my find a patern in it which we could use .. i think what we need to know are ,.

  1.age you left the watchtower.

  (or age you found out it was wrong).

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  Gopher

  1. df'd at age 39
  2. baptized at age 16
  3. brought up in it since birth

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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  32

  Open Letter to The leaders of Christendom

  by nytelecom1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear pope, mr. falwell, mr. baker, mr. gordon b. hinkley,.

  the chances of you reading this are the same as the gb reading this.. which makes this just as lame as posts on this board to the gb.. .

  thanks.

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  Gopher

  Nytelecom1 says

  boooooaha..you must be kidding....attacks on the Governing Body
  and their sex lives, bodily functions.... personal attacks on members of the congergations...such as ignorant..uneducated...brainwashed..

  Yes this is an open discussion board. Anyone can get on and be angry with the crap the WT Society pulls, and may occasionally cross the bounds of good taste. I repeat, anyone can get in. Even your insulting and insipid comments are not purged.

  None of that excuses the WT Society for its harmful teachings, subtle mind control techniques, and its idiotic shunning policy.

  LB is absolutely correct. This board does work, as the comments by newbies each week prove.

  Nytelecom1 said

  I think you need to open your own eyes

  Hey! My eyes were opened once I started reading Randy's "Freeminds" site, Ray Franz's "Crisis of Conscience", and the informative anti-JW postings on this site! I have my eyes wide open and I am free of the WT oppression.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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  32

  Open Letter to The leaders of Christendom

  by nytelecom1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear pope, mr. falwell, mr. baker, mr. gordon b. hinkley,.

  the chances of you reading this are the same as the gb reading this.. which makes this just as lame as posts on this board to the gb.. .

  thanks.

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  Gopher

  Expie,

  I guess I have too much time on my hands today!!!

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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  32

  Open Letter to The leaders of Christendom

  by nytelecom1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear pope, mr. falwell, mr. baker, mr. gordon b. hinkley,.

  the chances of you reading this are the same as the gb reading this.. which makes this just as lame as posts on this board to the gb.. .

  thanks.

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  Gopher

  NyTelecom,

  Sorry, I'm not a mind reader. I guess I misinterpreted your original premise, although you seem to clearly enough have stated it.

  So now the premise changes to:

  just when the antis think they
  have gotten the holy grail of bringing down the WTS..it dies
  sooner or later

  Well is that OUR premise? I think you misinterpret it. I understand it that we are here to help those who lurk and those have just started posting to get the support and understanding they need, so that they can clearly see why leaving the JW's is the best decision they could have ever made!

  Just like the WTS makes converts one at a time, we "antis" can help those who leave, one at a time.

  These major events like the UN Scandal, the scandal where each kingdom hall is potentially a pedophile sanctuary, the no-blood card mini-scandal, all are nails in the coffins in the minds of those who can see.

  This place of course will never bring down the WT Society. That disintegration will take place on its own over a period of decades.

  And this place will never convince those like yourself, trapped in the JW mindset, that truly that organization is not anything near what it claims to be. So sorry for you that you cannot see it.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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  32

  Open Letter to The leaders of Christendom

  by nytelecom1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear pope, mr. falwell, mr. baker, mr. gordon b. hinkley,.

  the chances of you reading this are the same as the gb reading this.. which makes this just as lame as posts on this board to the gb.. .

  thanks.

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  Gopher

  Nyt,

  Of course the Erica Rodriguez trial vs. the bastard and the WT Society can-do-nothing-wrongers isn't "hush hush". This board has worked hand in hand with SilentLambs to be sure it damn well isn't "hush hush". Your organization would rather keep it that way!!

  Your premise was that this board relies on old news. The no-blood card mini-scandal is a counterexample to your premise.

  Yes, it was announced at all meetings, and some board members were there. But was THE REAL REASON announced at the meetings? Or were people given the "snow job" about there being some misprint on the new cards?

  The real reasons were very apparent to those on this board who have had any experience dealing with the Society. And they made it clear, blowing away the "snow job" for all to see.

  This board opens the eyes. Your WT Society wishes for closed eyes and hush-hush on important matters. If it were truly honest and responsible, they would act in a more above-board and transparent matter.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)

  edited for spelling
• 
  32

  Open Letter to The leaders of Christendom

  by nytelecom1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear pope, mr. falwell, mr. baker, mr. gordon b. hinkley,.

  the chances of you reading this are the same as the gb reading this.. which makes this just as lame as posts on this board to the gb.. .

  thanks.

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  Gopher

  Cutting edge news?

  How about the Erica Rodriguez civil trial currently happening? How about the entire molestation/abuse cover-up scandal, soon to be exposed for all to see on Dateline NBC?

  How about news about the retracted "new" no-blood card which would have allowed JW's autologous (I believe that's the term) blood transfusions? But then the Governing Body pulling the new cards back and claiming some sort of "printing error"?

  How about the tens of new ones that come here each week with their stories about how the WT Society mistreated them? It's a worldwide sickness in the organization that continues up to this very month of this very year.

  This place does not rely on old news, NYTELCOM1. Quit distorting the facts.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
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  20

  Having intense nostalgia-is that bad?

  by ashitaka in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm having a wee bout of memory.

  i've been hearing a lot of the old crew i used to hang out with when i was a jw.

  my old best friend, he's getting married soon.

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  Gopher

  Ashi,

  It's a tough call! All I know is that, whether you wish it or not, they are programmed a certain way and will only respond to you within the confines of that program. They won't (likely) respond to you the same way you can to them, now that you practice a more accepting type of love and friendship than when you were a good dub.

  My thought is that we all go through phases of feelings when exiting the Borg, I have to admit it's true about me anyhow. But the feelings fade.

  So if you choose to, just let the feelings fade.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)